37. Brad Walker

Presenting your 2022 USATF Coach of the Year, BRAD WALKER!!!!!  Super pumped and honored to have Brad on the podcast once again.  There are some podcasts that just hit different, and this is one that I pulled into my driveway and didn't want to get out of my car because I couldn't stop listening to him.  Personally, I really enjoy Brad's way of looking at the art of coaching. 

He has had an incredible year and this episode really gave a "behind the scenes" look on how it was accomplished and showed that it's not all sunshine and rainbows when you are working with the best athletes in the world.  When Brad and I get together to talk, we dive pretty deep, so settle in for a long journey into the mind of one of the greatest coaches of our generation.

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Transcript

Jake Winder: (00:00)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the One More Jump podcast by Rise Pole Vault. Today we have the honor of having the 2022 U S A T F Coach of the Year, Brad Walker on the podcast. Him and I, when we get together, it goes pretty deep and pretty, pretty long time. So buckle up on this one. We got into the weeds on all kinds of different things with health and, and training. And his crazy year, this past year with that one two punch at the World Championship. Some changes in his training group. Just all kinds of stuff that we got into and, and I just was so grateful for his time. Cause one of the things we got into was how insane his schedule is. And yeah, it was a really cool look into what an elite, I mean the most elite pole vault coach in the country.

Jake Winder: (01:04)
What, what his day-to-day looks like. Cuz it might be surprising to you. But anyway, yeah, it was a great podcast. I am just so honored to be able to call him a friend and to be able to, I don't know, it's like one of those rare instances where one of your childhood heroes, you end up being able to ask them questions, any questions you want, and and they actually respond, which is kind of cool. So anyway, let's get to the episode. Well hope you enjoy this podcast with our coach of the year, Brad Walker.

Jake Winder: (01:54)
So

Jake Winder: (01:56)
It's no big deal at all. But first of all, I'd like to just say congratulations. U S A T F Coach of the Year, which is pretty exciting. Nice to be recognized, right?

Brad Walker: (02:05)
No, yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah, it was a, it was definitely a shocking phone call. I got a buddy of mine from U S A T F was like, Hey, I'm gonna give your number to somebody. And then I got a phone call and she a woman, you know, kind of one of their marketing women told me I had won award. And think to myself, I was like, wait, did I win or am I just in the running for it? Like, it was definitely outta the blue. But yeah, it was, it was very nice of him to, to do that. Yeah.

Jake Winder: (02:29)
Yeah. I why were you surprised? I mean, you crushed it , you did such a good job this year.

Brad Walker: (02:36)
Not

Jake Winder: (02:36)
You had known that something like you had a know that people were noticing. I mean, especially after this year, last year was, you know, incredible. But this year was like, whoa.

Brad Walker: (02:46)
Yeah, I mean I don't know. I just, I'm just, you know, doing the grind. Like I'm in Cairo school, I'm trying to keep everything together, going to Cairo School and coaching at the same time, and it's just like, life's chaotic and hectic and it just wasn't really even on the radar at all. It, it just was, I mean, I forgot that the annual convention even hap you know, it's just like you're just running around doing stuff and, and so yeah, it was, but it was, it was awesome. Yeah, it was really nice of him. I was really happy and, and, and certainly proud to receive that style of award from that group of people. And I don't know how that one's actually judged. Like, I don't know if it's done where U S A T F internally votes on it or if it's like a personal vote, you know, from, from everybody. But right. Either way I'm happy to, happy to be the recipient.

Jake Winder: (03:30)
Yeah, it's really cool for the pole vault as a whole too, you know, just to, you know, have like out of all the events, you know, like our event had somebody win that award, which is pretty cool.

Brad Walker: (03:42)
Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that tr to hold it down for the pole vault,

Jake Winder: (03:46)
Pole vault. Yeah. Well you're doing a good job. So what's going on, like with you were talking about chiropractic school and all of that, so like, I don't know if people realize, you know, there's like this disconnect with the pole vault and kind of how it all works in the us. Like maybe if you're really young in the sport, you might think like, oh, the Nike or the U S A T F coach of the Year, like he doesn't do anything besides sit around all day and just look at video and, and coach people, you know. Yeah. So I think it would be cool for people to get maybe a little background into like what you're doing and, and what your like day-to-day looks like.

Brad Walker: (04:23)
Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, similar to when top people think about, oh, well if you made the Olympic team, you know, you, you're doing a full-time ju you know, you just, that's your full-time gig and you're set and you, you know, you're, you're gonna have money coming in from all these different areas and the majority of the Olympians aren't in that, in that boat. And yeah, coaching, to be honest, is, is even worse than the athlete side of it when you're trying to work with just elites. And when I, when I say that it's really tricky to try to figure out how to charge elite athletes, but when you say elite athletes, not all of 'em are, I say elite versus professional because professional people, in my opinion, survive by making income from the sport. And elite athletes don't necessarily, that's how I

Jake Winder: (05:05)
And do you work with professional athletes? Like, because doesn't Katie and Sandy, they've got a, I don't think they do anything else, right?

Brad Walker: (05:15)
Correct. They, yeah, they're full-time athletes and, and in fact the af there's only a few that I would label elite, cuz the majority of them I guess that I work with are professional mm-hmm. . But obviously there's varying levels of professionalism if you just look at it from a financial model.

Jake Winder: (05:31)
I see what you're saying though.

Brad Walker: (05:32)
Yeah, because I, well, you know, one thing that I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be like condescending to anybody, but there's a lot of people who'll be like, I'm a pro pole vaulter cuz they made like a grand at one meat in the street, meat in, you know, Sacramento, and you're just like, well, hmm. You're not professionally doing it. You're not paying the bills with it. And, but that doesn't mean they're not great, you know what I mean? Right. It just means that there's, I think there's a level of differentiation between somebody who's surviving solely on the sport and then somebody who is trying to make it onto the scene. And I, I think, I think that there is a difference there. And so I always just kinda huge say elites huge. Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Winder: (06:09)
It's, it's huge. I mean, I, whenever I was coming, I would've never have said that I was a professional pole vaulter. Like did I go to meets with professional pole vaults? Absolutely. But I was a professional teacher, you know, like that that was what yes, that was what I was doing. Like I was a professional teacher and if I never pole vaulted a day in my life at that point, I would've, nothing would've changed in my life except maybe I would've been a little happier. .

Brad Walker: (06:35)
Yeah, yeah. Right. You know? Yeah. So so anyway, that's, that's going back to the question of kind of how my day looks. Yes.

Jake Winder: (06:44)
Before we get into that, I wanted to mention that Rise pole vault is making a strong push to produce some really cool video content this year. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, you are going to enjoy this new video content. So make sure that you subscribe and follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Hope you guys enjoy it.

Brad Walker: (07:06)
So first of all, when I, when I had originally decided to leave W S U and go to chiropractic school I did so because I wasn't really enjoying the college scene and I was thinking that I needed to, if I, I looked at some of the coaches who were like kind of mentors and coaches to me, and I saw the lifestyle that they were having to live, and I realized I moved around so much as an athlete that I didn't wanna do the same thing for the rest of my life. Mm-Hmm. . And for those people who were unfamiliar with, like the college coaching scene, they move around a lot and everybody's trying to like clamor for the upgraded coaching position. And then you move somewhere for two years and then you do well and you get an upgrade and you go to some other place for two years.

Brad Walker: (07:51)
And then you either try stay as an assistant coach or try to be the head coach, and then you have a whole nother deal where you go to a small program as a head coach, prove yourself, move a big program as a head coach or the, the, the other side of it is you're working as an assistant coach, your head coach gets fired, all of a sudden you don't have a job anymore. And it wasn't because of lack of, you know, what you were doing, it was because, you know, the head coach is gone and the new head coach is bringing in his own team and all that stuff. So there's, so you, when you sign a pos when you signed to be an assistant coach, you signed for a one year deal. There's no like five year contracts or anything like that. So every year,

Jake Winder: (08:23)
I didn't

Brad Walker: (08:24)
Know that every year you're resigning a contract and whether the head coach wants to resign you, which hopefully he does, or the head coach gets fired. I mean, your job is literally up in the air every single year. And from January until June you're traveling almost every weekend. And there's no real off time except for the summer. And then some of the coaches want you to be in the office just twiddling your thumbs when there's nothing to do in the summer, just because it seems like, you know, there should be an office presence. And , I'm just like, guys, this is, this is ridiculous. And so anyway, I I ended up taking an opportunity that a buddy of mine told me that people who had made the Olympics could get a scholarship to Cairo School. And it was such a good opportunity that I felt like I couldn't turn it down.

Brad Walker: (09:06)
And I've always been in turn in, in involved with health and athlete health and nutrition and all these different things. So it kind of seemed like a natural fit. And in my head, I don't know, I, I didn't know, I, I kind of don't think I knew what I was getting into. You know, they, a lot of people joke and they're like, oh, you know, well he's only a chiropractor, not a doctor. And I was probably one of those people who were like, well, you know, they do chiro, they push on some stuff. And as I'm getting through my last final of like lung consolidation and alesis and plural effusions and stuff, I'm like, guys, we don't even, we don't, we can't even do anything if we find this, we can't do anything. But the point is, is that you have to be able to find it and refer to the right person.

Brad Walker: (09:44)
Cuz a chiropractor's a point of entry physician, meaning like they, somebody will come to you and not have to go to anybody else before they see you. Ah. So for example, one of the classes we were, we were in a geriatrics class and this doctor was telling us an example that a guy came into his office and he said he pulled his peck muscle and he, he did it while he was painting a house. So the chiro was going through trying to, you know, recreate the pain, couldn't recreate it. He was like, dude, I think you need to go to the emergency room because you know, this style of chest pain, if we can't recreate it is potentially, you know, life, life threatening. So he did, he had heart, he ha he ended up having heart surgery that afternoon sort of thing.

Brad Walker: (10:19)
Whoa. Yeah. And it was, he was, he was having a heart attack. It had been going on for a couple days and you know, if that chiropractor hadn't noticed the signs and symptoms, you know, and all that stuff and got him to the right, you know, right place, he probably would've would've passed away that, you know, within that week or so. And so anyway, it's, it's I understand it, but at the same time I'm like, did I sign up to do to do all this stuff? I've got about one year left. My last quarter was 28 and a half credits. Whoa. Quarter. Yeah, quarter. So like in, I was in, I was in the quarter system in college and we would have to take 15 to stay eligible, or actually I think you had to take take 12 to stay eligible and we're in 28 and a half last quarter. Oh

Jake Winder: (11:03)
My gosh.

Brad Walker: (11:05)
So,

Jake Winder: (11:05)
And I was busy.

Brad Walker: (11:07)
Yeah. It's, it's awful. There are days where I feel like I'm not keeping my head above water. And then I know that both, like both sides of the coin are being, being hindered. Like my coaching is being hindered from it cuz of my time constraints. And then my chiropractic studies is being hindered by like trying to coach and try to be there for the athletes on the weekends and stuff like that. So I'm just treading water trying to get through it. And then once basically calendar year from now, I'll be finishing up with the program and life will open back up again for me, which I'm looking forward to.

Jake Winder: (11:36)
Yeah. Hang in there, man. One more year. Let's go. Come on. . Almost.

Brad Walker: (11:41)
You told me, if you told me that I could get a, a degree as a, as a doctor of chiropractic in one year, I would be like, let's do it. So I feel like that's how I have to frame it as I got one year to get this degree done. Right. I got three, three more boards that I gotta sit for. I passed my first boards on the first go around, which I was pumped with. And then yeah, three more and we'll be on the way.

Jake Winder: (12:05)
So do you intend to practice then? I, that's maybe a dumb question. I don't know. No,

Brad Walker: (12:12)
It's not a dumb question at all. I mean I don't have my I don't have, I'm not a five year planner. That's just not my, that's just not my style. And I feel like I know the last time you and I talked, we both kind of mentioned we were Christian and I feel like, I feel like the Holy Spirit, I feel like the Holy Spirit, there's a, there's a verse in the Bible where the Holy Spirit kind of blows like the wind and blows you where, you know, you don't know where you're going sort of thing. Mm-Hmm. . And I feel like that's been true in my life where I'll have opportunities present themselves and just kinda like walk into it knowing that it's the right thing, like feeling from a gut standpoint that it's the right thing. And so my gut's telling me that I'll be moving back closer to family and then how my life proceeds from there is is a bit un unsure, but I like the idea of treating, I just don't like the idea of treating like eight to five, five to six days a week.

Brad Walker: (13:02)
So it

Jake Winder: (13:03)
May be, yeah, I feel like your brain like won't fit into that sort of of category. Like, I, I work with a guy, his name's Mark Turner, and he's the only person that I trust my body with. Like, he's, he's a chiro, but like that's, that's the thing that bothers me about chiropractic is there are some chiros that are just chiros. You know, like, it's just like they, they just snap you up and do the, do the thing. And like, they're like, all right, we're gonna get you on the next nap in program and we're going to, you know, do this for three days, three days a week for six weeks, and then you should be good. Yeah. And then there's other chiros that are just

Jake Winder: (13:46)
Way better than the majority of doctors that I work with. And they know like everything about the human body, they have all sorts of certifications and all different types of things and they're just incredible. And so that I, I, I work with this guy, mark, and, and I just always, whenever you told me you were going to chiropractor, I was like, I, he would fit into that category of, of of chiropractor and what, what Mark Turner does is just so it looks just like so fun. Like he just, he's just very, he incorporates all aspects of human health into what he does, you know, nutrition and supplementation and you know, sometimes very fringy stuff too. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . And, and that's what I love about it. And I ju I don't know, just in the back of my head, I just see you doing something like that.

Brad Walker: (14:47)
Yeah. It's funny. Well, first I appreciate, you know, I appreciate that the you are, you're right. I mean, you know, unfortunately you go to certain chiropractic offices, like, let's say, and there's nothing wrong with being in a strip mall, but you'll see them every once. You'll just see a chiropractic sign in, like a random strip mall and, you know, adjustments for 1999 or whatever. And you go in and you do, you sit on the table, you get cracked and they, then they toss you off. And there is, for certain people, that's probably enough to be honest, but coming from an athletic background that's not how I wanna treat. And I would like to treat athletes, but I think the soft tissue component of people's bodies is is sometimes overlooked in the profession a little bit. Right. And, and I get it. And it depends on, like, it depends on who you wanna be and what you want to do.

Brad Walker: (15:33)
So if you're, if you're going after a solely financial model and you're trying to fit four appointments within an hour and you're seeing each person for 15 minutes, there's clinics that are doing like insane numbers where the doctor will literally be in there, the Cairo be in there for like, you know, three to four minutes per patient and they're just, it's a factory. And there is, I mean, I, I can't say that that's not it's not the model I wanna be in mm-hmm. . And there I think there are more effective ways to do it. And so you're right, I've seen some chiropractors in my career that were really, really instrumental in keeping me healthy. But those are the chiropractors that I was in their office for, you know, 30, 40 minutes I was getting soft tissue work, they were sending me home with exercises, they were doing all of that kind of stuff.

Brad Walker: (16:15)
And one of the things that's neat about the, the degree that you get is you really can do just about anything with it. And what I mean by that is, obviously we don't do anything with medicine. We can't prescribe any medication, which is kind of right up my alley cuz I think, you know, traditional MDs are kind of pumping people full of meds and Right. It's like, you got indigestion, well, don't stop eating that sloppy food that you're eating. Why don't you just take this pill? And it's like it might not be medicine that might not work, but but so, but you can, you know, you could do a nutrition angle, you can do, there's a lot of chiropractors who focus solely on like neuro, unlike on a cranial nerves. And they start doing all these things, eye tracking movements and all these different things where they're working through the cranial nerves.

Brad Walker: (16:58)
You can certainly do the traditional adjusting, but you can do soft tissue work. I'm already like kind of structuring how I think I would want an office of my own to be set up and my sister's a natural path. So there may be like an opportunity in the future. Oh cool. Kinda partner with a doctor who can prescribe medicine, but who still looks at the body in like a holistic approach that says, you know what I mean, that's not looking at it as like a, you know, MD saying take this. It's like, okay, my sister does a lot of stuff. She's actually kind of a migraine specialist, so she has her own little thing in the migraine world. But the idea of like running labs, looking at all the deficiencies, looking at genetic makeups, like I've done a lot of stuff in my own health.

Brad Walker: (17:40)
I know last time we talked on the podcast about me having chronic headaches. Yeah. And so I went through all sorts of different things of doing genetic testing and looking at they call 'em 'em, SNPs, SNPs. But basically you have like genetic testing and then you have a profile of what you've been handed down that may or may not be functioning appropriately from like one parent or both parents. And then with those you can understand why certain foods you don't like or certain foods make you feel bad and stuff. And then you can supplement around them. And my sister's pretty good at all that stuff. And so anyway, it's, you can kind of go anywhere with it. So like if I don't wanna just, you know, put people on a table and start cracking on 'em, I could do, I could do the neuro angle, I could do nutrition, I could do whatever, but I think I'd probably want to do soft tissue and, and you know alignment, you know, stuff with most people that I work with.

Jake Winder: (18:28)
Yeah. And that's what I usually recommend. Like, I recommend Mark Turner, the guy I'm talking about, I recommend him to, I mean he works, he works with all kinds of professional athletes and they, the professional athletes like fly him out to places like cuz he's, he's the man. Yeah. And, and so I recommend that people that we work with go and see him. And one of the things that I've always like, kind of suggested is if your chiros not doing soft tissue, you might just kind of want to think about it for a little bit. Because if they're solely just snapping you up, I don't know about that. Like if they're not, if they're not like working on the soft tissue as well. And that's the thing is like, sometimes I would go in, I'd have a messed up back or, you know, whatever, some pole vault injury and he would work on me for a while and then I'd be like waiting for the adjustment and he'd be like, all right, you're done. And I'd be like, no adjustment. You're a chiropractor. And he's like, yo, you don't need an adjustment. I don't wanna adjust you if you don't need an adjustment. You know? Yeah,

Brad Walker: (19:29)
Yeah. No, that's, those, those, I think that's super important. There's a, there's a sign in our clinic right now cuz I'm now like actually starting to work on people, but it's under the supervision of one of the doctors that are in the clinic and all that stuff. And there's a sign that says, when's the last time you didn't give an adjustment like question mark. Cuz it's like, the point of it is you have somebody who's out of alignment and you're trying to take pressure off of the nerves and trying to get all the tissue to calm down. And then once you get to that point, they're good. You know what I mean? Right. You're not trying, the model isn't like, see this person for the rest of their entire, well the model is do checkups to make sure that they're in alignment, you know, continuously so that they don't have something happen.

Brad Walker: (20:07)
But but yeah, the, the idea is to get somebody healthy and just kind of hit in maintenance mode. And I do agree that I think soft tissue, doing the soft tissue is something that will make the adjustment hold better and go much easier. And if you neglect it, especially in an a in the athlete population, you hold a lot of tension in the first place you're kind of doing a little bit of a disservice to the body and, and, and things aren't gonna be, I think as effective. And one of the things that I like the most of all soft tissue therapies is dry needly. And I found that out in my career when I was pole vaulting. All of my back pain was coming from my glutes. So for anybody who has back pain, listen up guys, it's probably coming from your glutes.

Brad Walker: (20:46)
The glutes get super tight since we're on like the top hand and they start kind of contracting and there's a lot of there's a lot of, you know, nerves, you know, through the low back and, and there's a lot of things going on back there. And you end up getting a situation where if the muscles get really tight and the back gets locked up, things start getting, you know, impinged and fired up. And anyway, there's certain states that chiropractors can use needles in certain states that they can't. So I'll most likely be practicing in a state that I can. And right. Dry needling is, is a cool way to really,

Jake Winder: (21:16)
I just need a a, a piece of paper here because I'm trying to write this down because Luke, Luke is going to be doing dry needling now. .

Brad Walker: (21:24)
Yeah. Well you gotta find good ones. So talk to your chiro who he will know and talk to, talk to that guy. But yeah, keeping the glutes open is like super important. And then what's cool about needles, in my opinion, like your thumbs can only go, okay, think of glute max. It's like this big, it's your, it's your butt, right? Like you can only effectively get, you know, a few centimeters into that tissue and then before the tissue's like too deep in there to effect. But a needle can go all the way through the entire muscle. So let's say you're trying to get the underbelly, let's say, let's say you're trying to get, you know, the most interior aspect of the, of the muscle. Like you can go directly to it with the needle. You can get like peck miner, which is like maybe a hard area to get to or effective, you know, everybody's trying to do door stretches and things, but you can go like straight in there with the needle. You can get areas in needles really deep that you just can't hit any other way.

Jake Winder: (22:17)
And what is the mechanism behind the dry needle though? So like it, I, I understand that it penetrates through and it can go deep to some sort of trigger point or some sort of adhesion in your muscle. And so when you , is it essentially like you're just kind of poking it until it releases or

Brad Walker: (22:35)
Sort of Yeah, sort of. I mean it's that's, that's definitely the unscientific way to look at it. And honestly that's the way I look at it. No, there are certain trigger points in the tissue. There's also one of the chiropractors, or no, excuse me, one of the acupuncturists, a long time ago I talked to you was like, think of it like this. The body is smart and the body knows that if it's being pierced with something contracting against that thing, it's gonna cause more damage. Oh. It's like your body's gonna know if you got stabbed with a knife, don't contract against it cuz you're gonna cut more fibers. Right? So there's a foreign body in there and the body is gonna say, well, don't contract against that, that's gonna cause harm, so let's release sort of thing. Now it won't always really, I mean the trigger points are what you're trying to shoot for and the trigger points are, you know, certain points in the muscle that that kind of have well there's just a little bit more control over the tissue and, and all of that stuff.

Brad Walker: (23:20)
But yeah, it's, it's, it's that and then it's also even like anything that causes inflammation will signal to the body like recover. So you're causing small inflammation. Just like if you're like lifting and tearing down muscle fibers, the muscle's gonna go, Hey, we need to do blood supply, we need new vitamins, minerals, all that kind of stuff. So if you get an area in your body that's like stagnant, there's not a lot of blood going on, the muscle's been tight for a long period of time and, and it doesn't have good blood flow and then you go jab and cause a bunch of inflammation in there, the body's gonna signal, Hey, we gotta come down and do this. So like, I think there's a lot of things going on through dry needling. I haven't studied it. Like I'm getting through the chiro degree first and then I have somebody in Spokane that I wanna shadow, but I'll definitely be taking dry needling courses. That's that's awesome. Awesome. And probably better be able to explain what's, what's going on once I do that.

Jake Winder: (24:05)
Right. Right. And that's what's so cool about I, in my opinion, like a chiropractor is you can be like a Swiss army knife. Like you can Exactly. Literally just, it's like, okay, well I I have dry needling that's in my quiver now, and now I'm going to go after a r t or flossing or, you know, whatever it is that you know, you want, you want to do. And that's what's so cool. And, and as you go on in the practice, your, your quiver just gets filled with so many freaking arrows, you know, and then you can, you can actually, if you, you know, in my head, if you get good enough at it, you could start to bring in like experts in those specific areas if you become too overwhelmed with work or whatever. And and that's what my guy has done is, you know, he just, he's got a group of people together and it's like, oh yeah, you, you know, have terrible stomach pain. All right, well you're gonna go see this lady. She's a GI specialist. Yeah. You know? Yeah,

Brad Walker: (25:02)
No, you're right. And what I was tell, I was telling my girlfriend the other day, I was like, I, I, I could see setting up my own practice and if this isn't, I've never had this happen at a practice before, but I agree with you, soft tissue is super important. So I was like, what if every single person who signs up to come in comes in? Like if you, you have 'em come in, let's say 9:00 AM but you're not gonna work on 'em until nine 30 and that first half hour there on a massage table getting massaged before you actually see them. So then your time becomes more efficient because somebody else is doing some of the soft tissue. But then as you see that patient more and more, you understand the areas that need more help. And so you're deriv you're, you're driving the massage and you're saying, these are the areas I need to focus on cuz this is what I'm gonna go after today from an adjustment standpoint.

Brad Walker: (25:39)
And then post adjustment, you know, maybe you're doing some needle work for the areas that couldn't get resolved or whatever. And you kind of have this like even in a, in a sense where if, you know mo like a lot of massages are 60 bucks an hour, so a dollar a minute. So it's like if you're charging somebody $30 but they get a full $30, you know, 30 minute massage before they see you, then they get adjusted, then you do some needle work, then you give them, you know, some exercises to go home and they do that fairly religiously for a few months. Like their body's gonna change and they're gonna notice Oh yeah. You know, notice a difference. And then the good thing about that is now I'm not doing nearly as much soft tissue, but they're still getting it done and then they're prepped and ready to go for when they're on my table and you know, so anyway, it's like you said, there's, there's a bunch of ways to go about it. But I just gotta get through school.

Jake Winder: (26:24)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. That the guy that I'm talking about, he he doesn't take insurance. So you can, you can run your insurance mm-hmm. , you know, through him, but not all of it is covered. And I think he just got tired of dealing with the insurance companies. Yeah. And he was just like, you know what, he's at that level where it's like, okay, if my, you know, if an appointment with me is running $150 or a hun I think it's 180 mm-hmm 180 or $200 per thing. So it's like, oh my gosh, that's so insane that that's so expensive. Like, how can I do that consistently or whatever people do because yeah, if you're that good, then people will do it.

Brad Walker: (27:10)
Yeah. And like, there's this woman, it's kind of funny. I had, I had never experienced this before and this is a woman that I wanna shadow before I get into really dry needling. But I was, so I was training Katie in Spokane and this was going in Spokane had actually it wasn't the year that Spokane held us indoors, but she was getting ready for us indoors. She was having some issues, I think with her Achilles. And I was like, I'm gonna want you to go see Jodi. And so I called Jodi, this was in February, so like, let's just say February of 2019. And I called Jodi's office and I was like, yeah, I have an athlete. They're, you know, there's a meet coming up in like three weeks that I wanna try to get 'em prepped for and I just wanna get an appointment and try to calm something down. She goes, well, we're booked out for the year.

Jake Winder: (27:47)
Oh my, my god ,

Brad Walker: (27:49)
It was February. I'm like, you're the, it's insane. Like, I couldn't believe it. I'd never called someone, you know, you, you, they're like, oh, we're six weeks out. I'm like, oh, that's annoying. You know, whatever. But the entire calendar year was booked. And I'm like, okay, so even just dry needling alone, if you're really talent, I mean every modality, if you're really talented, people will come to you because I think the health, you know, the state of health of the country and then healthcare in general is such a, is such a poor state that when you have something that's actually giving you pain relief and actually really working well, like people will do it. Yeah. And not only that, you know, not only that, but it's like for people who really understand what's going on in terms of like movement in the body and how the body sets up disease over time and stuff that's one of the things that's been really interesting in Cairo school is learning how, what they, what the chiropractic profession calls a subluxation.

Brad Walker: (28:37)
When you have a joint that's essentially in, in malpositioned or sitting in a pla way that it's not supposed to not only is it striking can it compress nerves and then those nerves have less signal going to different areas of the body. Like for example, in your midthoracic, a lot of those nerves innovate your organs. Okay. So you have then, then the nerves are coming out the spinal column in between the vertebrae and if the vertebrae you're compressing or you know, pinching a specific nerve in a specific fashion you're turning down the electrical signal that's gonna be going to that organ. And so then that, that organ, now all of a sudden if you have like gut problems or you have, you know, some sort of digestive issues or some gallbladder issues in fact there's a lot of, for young kids, there's a lot of young kids who get chronic ear infections and an up upper cervical adjustment can actually like significantly improve and or release like relieve that chronic ear infection.

Brad Walker: (29:32)
Wow. And so there's a lot of this like nervous system innovation that's coming outta the spine that an adjustment can help. And so it's been cool learning about that because I think from, from you or my perspective, we're just going performance, performance, performance. Like that's the only thing that matters. You know, one of the things like my ankle, I would get an anterior TAUs, meaning the TLU bone that was sitting, you know, the top of your foot that your tibia sits on would shift forward. Mm-Hmm. when it shifts forward, that foot can't dorsey flex as much as it's supposed to. So I'd be running and I'd get a ton of pain and I wouldn't be able to get over my toe very well on one foot cuz I had a foot surgery that I think made made it to where I had this anterior TAs problem fairly often.

Brad Walker: (30:09)
And until I got, like, if I had that, if I had an anterior TAs and I felt it, like I wouldn't, I couldn't run until I got it adjusted. So for me it's like, this is performance only, this is why I'm here. And then as I get a little bit more into the profession and understand the science behind what a subluxation can lead to, and then also like one of the classes we just got, I just finished this quarter is called vertebral subluxation theory. But it has to do with like nociceptors and mechanical receptors and how the brain perceives certain mal positions and it's like a cascade effect where it just shuts down and tightens muscles trying to reorient neutral. And then as that happens over time, it's kind of like a cascade of like tightness and you get into a situation where you don't move very well. Right. And then, you know, you, you have all these like aran patterns of tension that are like putting each, you know, position a little off and then all of a sudden, you know, over time you multiply that by years and it's like disease sets in sort of thing. So. Right.

Jake Winder: (31:07)
It's

Brad Walker: (31:07)
Just opened my mind up a little bit more to, to the more to the less per performance standpoint and the more just overall health standpoint sort of thing.

Jake Winder: (31:16)
Right. And I mean overall health is going to affect your performance. Whenever you said gallbladder, I read a book about how a lot of like middle-aged women get their gallbladders removed and how there's like correlations with certain diets and stuff like that and, and all of these things, whenever you said gallbladder, I was like, man, wouldn't it be crazy if it's like, oh, I'm having gallbladder issues, like my, my gallbladder hurts and and then they remove your gallbladder and then you find out that you could have got a chiropractic adjustment. . Yeah. Instead .

Brad Walker: (31:52)
No, that stuff happens a lot. I tell you what, there's a lot of surgeries that especially it's like fusion type surgeries. Ooh. Where Well, it's really sad because what'll happen is somebody will have back pain, right? So they go to the MD and the MD says, oh yeah, you got back pain. Here it is. They push on something, they don't know how to change it, so then they give you opioids. And then a lot of these people, like the whole opioid epidemic, like a lot of it was spurred on by back pain. And the MDs in like, I think it was like in the seventies, I got a book, but I, I hadn't actually read it where there was a huge, the MDs were trying to shut down chiropractic. So they were saying it's dangerous and it's this and it's that. And they were trying to get it outta the profession because they didn't like that they were treating patients without, you know, pharmaceuticals, drugs, yeah.

Brad Walker: (32:33)
Yeah. Without drugs. And so then they were like trying to kind of badge on the profession and all that stuff. But it's like, there's been been, I don't know, I mean I don't know how many surgeries have been done that could have been resolved, which is like good consistent care. And, and like spurred on like kind of part of the opioid epidemic where it's like they just keep people on drugs and then people are drugged up and they have to stay on the opioids cuz otherwise they're in too much pain and things like that. And then you do that long enough and you get degeneration in the joints that you can't come back from. So then you have to do like a spinal fusion and it's just like, gosh, you just needed movement. You know? And that's one of the things that I try to keep in the back of my mind cuz you, you can get super nerdy about all this kind of stuff and say that you can cure the world by, you know, doing a chiropractic adjustment and I'm really not on that train, so to speak.

Brad Walker: (33:14)
However the body wants to move and if something stops moving, get it moving again. You know, like when it all comes down to it, like that's the motto that I look at. So if you have a segment or a joint in your body that's, that's locked up, just get it to move and then make sure that it stays moving. And if you do that for a long period of time, you're probably gonna be pretty healthy. And if you don't do that over a long period of time, pain's gonna set in and then quality of life goes down and then your alcohol drinking goes up cause you're trying to mask the pain and then all of a sudden you got some other problem that you didn't know was a catalyst. You know, the catalyst was just a joint that wasn't moving way back when.

Jake Winder: (33:51)
Right. I I have two points that I just want to talk about really quick. Number one is I feel like we went through a, as a society, we went through a very deep dark and we're still probably, we're still in it is just throwing drugs at everything. Like just throw some drugs at it, throw some drugs at it. But then we also went through and are still kind of in a very surgery heavy time too, you know mm-hmm. like, where it was like, Hey, we will just throw some drugs at it. We'll go in there, we'll take that thing out of there and then should be good. Yeah. You know, like it's like outta sight outta mind type thing. Like, yo, you, you know, this hurts or that hurts, ah, we'll just take it out. You know? And and I really do think that in the future, like there's been times where I, I got my knee scoped out and stuff like that and I was like, did I really like, did I really need that?

Jake Winder: (34:52)
Like they went in and, and you know, they cleaned it out or whatever. And maybe I did, maybe I didn't. But was I doing all of the right things? Like was I using surgery as a last ditch effort instead of Oh no, I got a little tear in my meniscus gotta have surgery, you know, or, or whatever. And that's where I think in the future it's going to, I, I don't know how you feel about like stem cells and peptides and like all of those sorts of things. But I feel like some parts of society are moving away towards like, hold on, let's not do surgery just yet. Let's try some other things and see if we can do this without surgery because you can't take surgery back. Mm-Hmm. , you know, like once you get it, once you fuse that spine together, Yeah. Can't, it's hard. You can't ca you know, saw it back apart, you know.

Brad Walker: (35:48)
Yep. A hundred percent. Yeah. And well the one thing that I'd say, and just cuz I, you know, I, I don't want this to sound like just jump on the chiro train to everybody listening, but there is like, if I got stabbed, I don't want to go to a chiropractor ,

Jake Winder: (36:01)
You know? Right, right, right. If

Brad Walker: (36:02)
I'm, if I'm in an altercation, I have like, something blows up in my body, I have like organ failure, like I'm not gonna go get that adjusted

Jake Winder: (36:09)
Out .

Brad Walker: (36:10)
Yeah. It's not like, Hey, get get hit me that with that thoracic thrust real quick and then all of a sudden my heart attack disappears. I there's absolutely a time and a place for all things, well not all things medical, but a lot of things medical and but I think you're right that the, you know, surgeons make money by performing surgery. That's their job, that's their income. So if you get referred to one only the really, really good ones will say, you don't need this. Mm. All the rest of 'em are gonna do the surgery. In fact my girls, she has, she's getting, she has to get her wisdom teeth out and the course they're saying, okay, you know, we need to get an anesthesiologist in here and we need to put you under, well I have my wisdom teeth out by LA with laughing gas.

Brad Walker: (36:58)
It was no big deal. And yeah, because we're told that we don't need we that, that we need anesthesia. Right, right. And, and we we're told that we need it. Well why, why are we told that we need that? Well, because somebody's getting probably what, five to $10,000 to be standing in a room, turning a knob, making sure that you're like unconscious but you're doing it safely and Right. I was at the Olympic Training center in, I don't know, let's say 20, let's just say it was 2011. And there was a drug specialist who came on and it was kind of a, it was kind of like an awareness for drug for drug use saying these are the drugs that stay in your body the longest. And it was like, if you drink, you metabolize it quickly, weed stays in your body a little longer if you do harder drugs, this can have a negative effect.

Brad Walker: (37:38)
And last this long. And then they were, they, they said, does anybody know what stays in your, in your body for an entire like calendar year? Or I, I might be getting the dates messed up, but it was like six months to a year like it was. And everybody's like, whoa, what would that be? You know, it's gotta be ecstasy, you know, and you're just, you know, you see on dumb and they were like, this is anesthesia. This is anesthesia from surgery. It stays in your, your body. I mean, it, it's so aggressive that it completely blacks you out. Right. And you stay under too long, you know, like there's problems. Like it's a really aggressive thing. And if I'm having certain surgeries, I will absolutely go in and get anesthesia because it's warranted. Right. Because you don't wanna be, you don't wanna be feeling or being aware of that stuff. But wisdom teeth just pulling out some

Jake Winder: (38:19)
Teeths a little more, it is a little, it's there's heat down in there, man. Well some

Brad Walker: (38:24)
Of them, some people are getting them where they're

Jake Winder: (38:26)
Actually, actually you were awake when you got your wisdom teeth out.

Brad Walker: (38:28)
I had, I was in a dream state after I had some laughing gas, some nitric oxide. And first I remember be like, be being high. Right. As in I was sitting there and I was, and I, I knew that I shouldn't laugh, but I really wanted to laugh and I was like, and I was biting my cheek really hard so that I wouldn't laugh. Right. I was like close to busting out laughing. And then I was like, but well, shouldn't I be in this? You know, like, and I'm like, hi. So I'm like, shouldn't, well maybe it's okay to laugh cuz they know that I'm taking this gas, but it still seems ridiculous if I just started laughing . Anyway. And then I then I had all four removed and I basically like blinked four times and each time I blinked they were on a different tooth and then I was up.

Brad Walker: (39:05)
And so actually Oh wow. I'm coaching Gabby Leon now and Gabby had her wisdom teeth out not too long ago. And I just told her I, I told her the same thing I just told you, like, you don't have to get put under and you can do something like a nitrous oxide. She did, she said it was awesome and she was training the next day, like fully like no problems. Right, right. And yeah, so there's a lot of procedures like as an example that the medical community, like they're making their money by, you know, doing things that maybe aren't necessarily needed to be done. And the same thing, I had a, I had a choice in 2010 to have C four five two vertebral vertebrae fused because my c the disc in between C 4 0 5 was was, was causing issues and it was striking a nerve and it was really painful and all that stuff.

Brad Walker: (39:51)
And I just said, gosh, I really don't want to fuse that because if it pole vaults land on their upper shoulders and neck all the time. And I said, if I all of a sudden take a functioning joint out, now I have more stress on C three four. Yep. And you know, five six and I don't want to do that. And so then I, you know, did some prolotherapy and I started doing a bunch of rehab and all of a sudden, you know, I didn't need it. And I was like, well I'm glad it's not used. You know, it's, it's something that, and, and note the doctor was just giving me an option, Hey, if you wanna get rid of this, this is something we could do. But he wasn't pushing it. And but you know, a lot of people would do that fusion and then like you said, you lose you lose out in the long run.

Jake Winder: (40:26)
Yeah. And I, I don't want to seem like a hater towards, you know, surgeons and stuff like that too. You had a very good point. If you snap your leg in half, go, go

Brad Walker: (40:37)
Get surgery, go get surgery on that. Yeah.

Jake Winder: (40:39)
Yeah. But I, I tell my wife this all the time and she might get mad at me for saying this, but like my kids, like, they'll get like a runny nose or something like that, right? Mm-Hmm. and she'll be like okay, well we gotta bring 'em into the doctor. And I'll be like, well they're going to, their job is to tell you like, you're paying somebody to tell you for a service and you're not, you know, it's very rare when you're gonna go in there and because there's probably sometimes where doctors are gonna be like, oh man, there's nothing really wrong with this kid. Like, can I make something up? Or like, cuz they're paying for this. Yeah. You know, like they're paying for this. Yeah. And then oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get her on, you know, breathing treatments and, and you know, stuff like that and stuff that's not really that, you know, invasive. And I feel like sometimes it's like, well if you go to a doctor, they're going to tell you doctor stuff, you know, like, and if

Brad Walker: (41:33)
You're not gonna have a cold, you're gonna have the rhinovirus and that's gonna sound

Jake Winder: (41:36)
Scary.

Brad Walker: (41:36)
Exactly. And then all of a sudden over the counters aren't gonna be enough and you only want the best for your child and then, you know, $350 later you have a fancy asthma thing or you know, just a acetaminophen that's coded in something fancy that they're, you know, charging you up the Yeah, I agree. It's, that's their job. And, and I mean it's, it's you know, we're in a, we're in a weird, you know, humanity I feel like is in a weird state. We don't have to go down the whole vaccine, you know, deal or anything like that. Cuz that'll probably be divisive and everybody, I mean, I'm not pc so we can get into it if you want, but ,

Jake Winder: (42:11)
But I know that,

Brad Walker: (42:12)
But we're put into such a state of we're we're, we're like being put into such a state of fear. Everything's scary, you know, now that the, now that the coronavirus came out, which now that the coronavirus came out, now they're saying this is gonna be the worst flu season the world's ever seen. And it's like, we're not gonna die in this flu season, you know what I mean? Like, we may be a little bit more of ill health or whatever, but I just feel like there's panic around illness now in a different way than there used to be. Mm-Hmm , I'm like, God, this is, it's a flu. It's a little bit worse. Like stay healthy, do your vitamin D and vitamin C and do all the things and like, don't be obese. That's gonna be like super helpful for you getting over this thing and you know what I mean? Like, exercise a little bit and do things that are like normal human things to do. And you know, there are certain people who are predisposed. I get that. I'm not trying to like say that that's not a thing cuz it absolutely is. But gosh, it's just like everybody's trying to put such a big state of fear in everybody's mind that we're now becoming worried about things that are pretty harmless I think overall. And it's a, I think it's a bad way to go.

Jake Winder: (43:09)
Yeah. It's hard. I mean, and it had it, it had its effects on me. I think the psychological effects of the last three years were pretty substantial. Like it it was just a wild, wild time, you know? I

Brad Walker: (43:23)
Yeah. I don't think we're out of it. I don't think we're outta it.

Jake Winder: (43:25)
No, no, no, no. It's,

Brad Walker: (43:26)
We're

Jake Winder: (43:26)
Not out. It's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a while and you know, it is what it is. But I wanted to go back to, we had talked a little bit about you had talked about how what do you call the things dry needling causes Oh yeah. Like minor inflammation and stuff like that. So inflammation is one of those bad words. Like, it's like, oh my gosh, you got inflammation and you know, this is, this is terrible. Get some ice, put some ice on it. We gotta get the inflammation down. Yeah. Okay. So this is something that's been bothering me for a long time and I've been waiting to talk to you about this on the podcast. So I love cold therapy. I think that ice baths and I go into Frozen Rivers at times during the winter and, and I think it's an incredible hormetic stressor that is really, really awesome.

Jake Winder: (44:18)
For somebody. I don't recommend that our, like my athletes do it. Just because there is, it does put a large amount of stress on, on your body, especially if you're going in really frigid stuff like up to your, up to your neck and stuff like that, . So I don't recommend like Luke do it and stuff like that for the general person. I think it's good. But so that side of cold therapy I really, really like and I think it's been beneficial to me in my daily life. But I think this whole like icing like injuries and like icing shin splints and, and like doing, like using this ice as like this crazy like healer of all things is very old science. Is that, what do you think about that?

Brad Walker: (45:10)
I think that it's still applicable for certain, certain styles of injury and I think ICE is most useful when you have an acute onset something and you're trying to get the swelling down. I think ICE is, has its place in that area. I've never been huge on ice as a long-term kind of treatment protocol for anything, to be honest. And the main reason I say that is probably because of my own body's experience with it. But you're right that certain inflammation's fine, certain inflammation's good, and it causes hormonal activity in the body and, and things that we need. The reason we lift is to create inflammation so that our body can use that inflammation as signaling to kind of rebuild tissue and things like that. In fact, if you were to take so many, you know, doses of omega three s and anti-inflammatories and keep the inflammation down to, to a non-existent point, and I mean you can't get it to non-existent, but really low, then you actually lose the ability to kind of like recover in a normal way.

Brad Walker: (46:10)
So that's actually kind of the, the, you know, inflammation certainly has a positive role for training and things like that. I look at the body as, as I said earlier, the body wants to move and part of movement is blood flow. So you need blood flow like everywhere. And when you have a chronic injury that causes a lot of tension. This is kind of how I view it. So you have all of your muscle fibers that wanna line up. They're lining up like parallel, right? Like I'm interlocking my fingers and saying they're all parallel. And once you get, once you, they start getting a lot of tension, you start shortening the muscle and the fibers are now like gripping a little bit tighter, right? And you have the, the kind of muscle tendon junction and things like that. When there's more tension into tissue, there's a little bit less, think of like a sponge, right?

Brad Walker: (47:02)
Mm-Hmm. , like if you're pulling the sponge tight you don't get as much absorption through, through kind of the tissue, right? And so when you have a chronic injury, most of the time you have a lot of tight muscles and the tendons and stuff like that, maybe really tight around it. And then you have the inability to get new blood flow, take all of lactic acid and all of the metabolites and things that need the toxins that need to be removed and bring fresh blood in there. So when I think of using ice on an area that's already really tight and overworked, I, I think of an area that's not gonna be able to absorb blood very effectively. And now you're putting a cold compress on there that's gonna like vasoconstrict even more and push more blood out. And then we're hoping that as it relaxes, like new blood comes in, well what if it's not very good at relaxing? Like we, we already know. I don't know how to turn those dings off.

Jake Winder: (47:47)
I can't hear 'em. Okay,

Brad Walker: (47:48)
Perfect. Yeah. you know, and so, so then you have a situation where you're like forcing blood out, but is new blood coming in? Cause one of the things that I had, I have, I don't know if I have what's called Rays syndrome, but it's where your hands and feet get really cold. And like if I was in the cold ocean for a while, I'd lose all blood flow to my extremities. Like my fingers turn, start turning white. And so anyway, I had that, I mean, I still have it, but if I were to go in a really cold ice bath and then get out, I have like no blood flow in my toes. For example, if I'm just up to my waist and it'll take like forever before they start getting warm. I mean, it takes like 30 minutes, an hour, whatever. And I'm like, gosh, is this the most effective way to increase blood flow to an area that needs it?

Brad Walker: (48:27)
And in my mind it was not. And maybe that's just set up, you know, how my, how my body's set up. But I'm thinking what I normally do, if I have an area that if I have an athlete that has an area that needs to get blood flow or as in an area that's inflamed and hurts them, I, I always go to contrast. So I'll do like three minutes in cold, one minute and hot. I'll do three to five rotations of that. And then normally I'll tell the athlete, especially if it's like an extremity where there's not great blood flow to begin with, I'll have 'em end on hot. So I want blood coming back into the area at the very end. And I think that that works a little bit better because you're creating a pump now and you're getting like, you know, vasoconstriction, vasodilation consistently.

Brad Walker: (49:06)
And then as that happens, you're cycling through blood a little bit more effectively. And then instead of leaving where you're constricted, you leave when the tissue's open and full of blood and then the body's gonna kind of start using, you know, that as, as a healing mechanism. So I think you're, I think you're, and one of the, I I also talked to an acupuncturist, Amy akf, who is a high jumper who I think she went to like five Olympic games. She was amazing. High jumper who's married to Ty Harvey, who's, you know, the Essex Pole guy. And she actually said Eastern medicine never uses ice. It's always heat and it's always increased blood flow through heat. And something about that resonates with me. I love saunas, I love hot tubs, I love, you know, all of the heat modalities, but ice is just not something that kind of, my body loves all that much. So I'm on board with your thoughts on that. I mean, I, I do think like if you were to roll your ankle and get massive inflammation, throw some ice on it and try to get that inflammation outta there, but once the inflammation's gone, try to do more of like a contrast or something to just get blood flow to the tissue.

Jake Winder: (50:01)
Okay. So just to push back on the last part, so the, that like, so the inflammation, so the way I think of it is like the, just your body's natural response to me, I feel like body's much smarter than, you know, we give it credit for sometimes. So if the ankle, let's say, cuz you had said acute onset, so for those of who don't know, acute onset is something that like happens like you rolled your ankle really bad and it immediately, like you hurt it. It's not like a, a long-term overuse injury. It happened like right away. So if you did roll that ankle and like you did get that inflammation, like isn't that the body's like response to be like, okay, we're gonna tighten, we're gonna lock this area down so it doesn't get hurt anymore. You know, we're gonna swell it up. So it's almost like a cast like creating like a cast around that ankle and then isn't the inflammation, doesn't it contain like all the really good stuff to start the healing process?

Brad Walker: (51:07)
Yeah, I think the, I think, I think the prevailing thought you can't clear out, okay, let's say, let's say you tear a small ligament or tendon or something in like an ankle roll mm-hmm.

Jake Winder: (51:19)
,

Brad Walker: (51:21)
You're not gonna be able to clear out all the inflammation. You're just trying to get rid of the excess inflammation. That may not be like the, the, is the body signals to hey, bring inflammation here. It probably overdoes it a little bit and okay, you're gonna, you know, you're trying to move some of the stuff that's probably not gonna be well utilized and trying to, cuz you can't, you can't control all of it. So no matter what it's gonna be going on. I think the idea is that the, the excess inflammation isn't that much, there's not much benefit to it. And then it would be more benefit to reduce that so that the body can kind of better handle the current level of inflammation and maybe start healing a little bit faster.

Jake Winder: (51:59)
Gotcha, gotcha.

Brad Walker: (51:59)
So to speak. Yeah. So you are a hundred percent correct and I, I mean I always, I think about that a lot of times when we're in class and stuff where I'm like, God designed this thing so he knows what's best for it, right? So, but then at the same time there are, I think there are ways to speed things up and there are ways to make things a little bit more efficient. And there's probably, you know, if you look at it from that kind of model, it's like, well maybe that's why man actually figured out how to do some of these things. It's cuz God's saying, Hey, do it this way. You know? I don't know. It's like the, you know, steering people towards things that he wants people to understand and know. But but yeah, I, I think overall the information inflammation is, it's a signal to the body to start going to work and it's absolutely necessary. And if you didn't have any inflammatory response, you'd be in a lot of trouble. Yeah. but there can be a little bit more than is needed or necessary to have effective healing. And that's the stuff we're trying to get rid of.

Jake Winder: (52:50)
Yeah. And I think that the overarching, you know, thing for this scenario is this, for an athlete in particular is you rolled your ankle, you, you know, did whatever to it. Bunch of inflammation comes in. Let's say that that inflammation, let's say it's good and it's going to help you. Okay? There's, if there's no timeline, then maybe just, you know, babying that thing and letting your body do its thing and, and do and slowly let it heal itself. Maybe that's the best, you know, way to do it. But we gotta meet next weekend ,

Brad Walker: (53:30)
You know? Yes. Yes.

Jake Winder: (53:31)
So, so it's like we don't got time to like sit around and, and just watch, do list or feel the slow process of our body trying to recover that injured area. So the cool thing is we have people like you and people like, you know, that athletes work with that are like, all right, well, you know, best case scenario is you just don't do anything and you let it, let it kind of heal on its own. Mm-Hmm. , it's like, well, we don't have that option. You know? Yeah. Katie and Sandy might have a diamond league the next week and their income is dependent on them performing. Yeah,

Brad Walker: (54:07)
Yeah. No, and I guess the last thing that I would say about this, and it was an article that popped in my mind. This was, this was way before school, but there was an article that I read about hamstring injuries and they did a research study on it. They had three control groups. They had the control group who tore a hamstring, did nothing. Then they had a control group who tore a hamstring and did only like physical therapy like ice and ultrasound and stem and different modalities that a physical therapist would use. And then the third group did ice stem and ex, or they did, they did the physical therapy modalities plus exercise. And that group, by far healed the fastest mm-hmm. . And so, you know, when you're saying best case, do nothing, like, I'm pretty sure that's not best case because again, in the model in my head of don't let anything stay stagnant, the body needs to move.

Brad Walker: (54:53)
So if you have excess inflammation and you're not moving the body, you're not getting the inflammation cleared, then that kind of stagnates and pools and it's underutilized. Even the good stuff is, you know, that that's all in the inflammatory response. And like, you know, the, I think it's like pro, there's all sorts of things in there that, that are gonna help heal. Those need to be moved around. Like if they get stagnant, they're just sitting there, they can't effectively go. I mean, they will, but it's not as efficient as it can if the blood flow is moving through the area and drawing all that stuff in. So anyway, this study showed that exercising through injury, so long as you're not doing additional damage increase the healing time significantly. And

Jake Winder: (55:30)
That makes sense. I

Brad Walker: (55:32)
Think that's a takeaway. Like for all the younger athletes who are, you know, I mean, there's a lot of people who are gonna get hamstring pairs. There's a lot of people who are gonna get all these different things. When my athletes have any sort of like little hamstring issue, cal issue or whatever, I put 'em in the weight room and I make 'em lift really hard. And so long as the lifting doesn't cause pain. So if you have a big hamstring tear and it's like a bad tear and you go to squat and it hurts, you can't squat. Like that's gonna be terrible. Right. If you're feeling pain. But if you're not feeling pain, then you go through heavy lifting I think that causes a healing response that's better than just, you know, sitting on the couch elevating your leg with an ice pack.

Jake Winder: (56:04)
Right. Because I think one thing that I'm taking from basically the whole conversation so far is you need to signal your body properly. Mm-Hmm. , you need to send your body the proper signals. If you send your body the signal that we're going to lay on the couch, then your body's going to adapt to laying on the couch couch. If you signal your body, hey, like, I know we're hurt a little bit, but we gotta keep moving, then your body's gonna adapt to that. You know? And I think that that's a very important thing for people to understand too, is like, signal your body properly. If you are in a profession where you need to move fast, you need to move fast, you know, like, and, and your body will respond to that, you know? Mm-Hmm. , if you're, if you're, you know, running three miles, you know, three times a week and you want to be a fast, powerful pole vault, you're not sending your body the proper signals, you know, a hundred percent to be able to do that. But, so what for, just to kind of maybe put a little bit of a cap on this whole chiropractic thing. So like how do you, do you plan to continue working with elite athletes, you know, as time goes on because that, that starting a practice, it sounds like you're kind of like teeter tottering. Yeah. Between a bunch of things right now.

Brad Walker: (57:24)
Well, a bit, I mean, back in the day when I was still, when I was at Wssu still coaching, but then thinking about chiropractic, I was like, well, I, there's a potential to have like an elite training facility where I practice out of it and maybe half the day I treat, and then half the day I coach. Hmm. That's something that is intriguing to me, but also there's a little bit of and you know, I think probably we'll get into a lot of the coaching stuff, and that's probably right around the corner in this conversation. But there's, there's also, you know, certain things and limitations in coaching elites that leading my financial future to the hands of elite athletes is not something that I'm comfortable with. And there has been, and, and I'll, I'm happy to get into some of it, but there's been a lot of shift of who I'm actually working with this year. And currently I'm only coaching three pole vaulters right now which is Katie, Gabby, Leon, and Hussein Al Hazan. So those are the only three pole vaulters that I'll be coaching this season. Yeah. So we can, we can unfold that as needed.

Jake Winder: (58:22)
That's, yeah. Please do. I, that was a little bit of a shocker.

Brad Walker: (58:27)
Yeah. Yeah. It was it was an interesting set of events that all kind of cascaded and then kind of, kind of put us here. But yeah. So we can, we can unfold that. But again, it just kind of depends on the state of the sport. The athletes who I'd wanna work with, who'd wanna work with me, where I'm living if I have a facility. And then again, it's kind of like the, there's a lot of people who I think would like to coach elite pole vaulters. And what happens is they set up a club and then they start, you know, working 80 high school kids mm-hmm. . And it's almost impossible to have a financial model with elites that works. It's almost impossible cuz there's so few elites who are making good money that you can't really do it. And so if you wanna work with elites, a lot of it is kind of like you're kind of doing a fa you're trying to do a favor for them, especially with the amount that you end up charging them.

Brad Walker: (59:21)
Like, I, I, I, I saw your guys', I looked at your guys' website the other day and like, what I was charging my kind of base level elite is just a little bit more than you're charging your high school kids. Right. And but I'm only working with a couple of them. It's like, well, you can't, that's not a model that works. Right? Right. So then you try to have different contracts and it, it just becomes this kind of messy situation where some people are paying more, but they feel like they're getting in the same service. And then the ones who you can't take, if you try to take a percentage of somebody who makes zero money, then you're getting zero from them. So that's even worse than charging a base level. But the base level's so low that I've done a math before and it's literally like under $15 an hour.

Brad Walker: (59:58)
And then you've worked your entire career to become hopefully, let's just say a top 20 coach in the world. So I'm not gonna, I don't wanna, I'll just say I'm, I'm, I'm, let's say I'm in the top 20 or, and the top 20 in any profession is getting paid a lot per hour, and then you're getting like 1250 an hour. It's like, well just go work at Chipotle. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't, it just doesn't work. And and then on top of that, you start to deal with the emotions of the athletes and you're taking on all this stuff and you realize that like your level of happiness in life and what you're doing is, you know, partly compounded by the people around you and you're wor you know, you're, you're, you're trying to deal with like athletes emotions and it just becomes this thing where it's like, gosh, I don't know if the, you know, for certain athletes, a journey is absolutely worth it.

Brad Walker: (01:00:39)
And for other athletes, a journey is absolutely not worth it. And then your quality of life, you know, where does that lie within all of it? And, and, you know, if you're making N F L money coaching, that's great and you can handle some of the stresses. But if you're not making much money and you're trying to help people, then it becomes, you know, emotionally not not a good situation. It's just like, ah, maybe this isn't right. So the short, the short version to that question is, I don't know how long I'll be coaching elites mm-hmm. . And I don't know what that looks like. I know that through Paris there's a hundred percent focus on getting all of the athletes that I'm working with through Paris. And then after that they'll be like, okay, where's everything, you know, where, where's what's the lay of the land look like now?

Jake Winder: (01:01:18)
Yeah, I, I can understand, you know, cause I, I write all of Luke's training and I took on his training 100% about almost after re at Reno it would be a year ago. Yep. And yeah, it's difficult because if you want to share in, my dad always said, you know, if you wanna share in the success of an athlete, you have to share, share the failures hard parts too, and the failures. And, and so you have to shoulder all of that. And that's really a lot of pressure, you know? Mm-Hmm. , and, and, and I know that whenever Luke gets out of a workout and it wasn't the greatest workout, it's like, I, I really feel it a lot, but I gotta run this company too, and I gotta take care of my kids and I gotta be a good husband and I gotta go grocery shopping, , you know, like, I mean, mean like, so that, that's, I think you and I are kind of in a little bit similar situations where it's like, man, I got this one thing over here that this is my career.

Jake Winder: (01:02:28)
This is how I, I'm making my, the bulk of my living, which you eventually, you know, if you were to open up a practice, that would be, that would be that. But then it's like, okay, well I want to be able to give 100% to that, but then I also want to be able to give 100% to the athletes that I'm working with as well. Mm-Hmm. . And then it's like, man, it becomes a very, very difficult thing. And I think it all boils down to your athletes, you know, my athlete being Luke to be understanding and they need to understand you know, I, you know, that my entire world, I love my brother and, and I want him to do well, but my entire world, like doesn't revolve around him. And, and he's very understanding of that. Yeah. And, and grateful for the things that I, that I do and the meets that I can make it to and the travel that I do you know, take on for him or whatever. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (01:03:30)
You know? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, it's, there's an emotional burden. And now I don't wanna say burden. There's an emotional load or toll of coaching, especially emotion. All, all elite athletes are gonna be emotional people, which is why they're elite athletes to begin with. Like that aspect of their personality drives them to a high level of work ethic and success.

Brad Walker: (01:03:51)
But that spills over to your emotion when you're out there and you're, the ups and downs are absolutely something that you're a part of. And some people it's absolutely worth doing that. And then there's other people that it's just not worth doing that. But then you're trying to still support them in ways that they think, you know, that you think is gonna be good for them. And it ends up being very thankless, I think in certain, certain aspects with certain people. And then also, like you said, your brother, because he's family understands you, your time commitment to your load and all of that stuff. And he respects it where other athletes, even if they're paying a little bit more than your high school kids pay per month, are thinking, you're not giving me enough of your time. Why aren't, you know, why aren't you here more?

Brad Walker: (01:04:33)
Like, this isn't what I signed up for. And they're paying very little, but because they have very little in their bank account, it seems like a lot. Right. And it becomes this thing where it's like, and that's not all the athletes, but that's, that's some of the athletes, you know what I mean? Yeah. And when you try to run an elite group, the people who are having the most success are usually the most satisfied. And the people who are having the least success, usually the least satisfied. But the reason that they're dissatisfied is not because of you, it's because of their own things that they are like working on, which is why they probably haven't had, you know, much success. And they have to blame, they have to put the blame somewhere. And the last place that a lot of those athletes wanna put the blame is on themselves.

Brad Walker: (01:05:13)
And so that's an area that becomes very burdensome as well. And you get the emotional brunt of somebody's either insecurities or, you know, abilities that aren't quite up to the standards they were once hoping for. And then you carry that burden and or they resent you because they think that you didn't help them get where, you know, they wanted to go. And that's something that's very real in the elite world. And most elite athletes are very in a, in a way that's necessary. They have to be very selfish because they have to be very self-focused. Mm-Hmm. But then they also have a tendency to, you know, I I, I told this to my college kids when I got to wsu, I said, I said, and so I, I coach high jumpers and pole vaulters and that's, those are the only two event groups that I coached.

Brad Walker: (01:05:59)
I said, by a show of hands, who in here wants to be a PAC 12 champion? And I said, like, everybody raises their hands. And I said, I promise you, not everybody in here is gonna be a PAC 12 champion, because a lot of you guys aren't gonna work enough and hard enough to be, be to do what's required to become that. And they just kind of all looked around . And I was like, I was like setting, I actually really had a great group of people at W S U and in fact, my, I personally think that my high jumpers and pole vaulters worked harder in the weight room and on the track in the majority of the team. And I hold st i, we, it was kind of funny, my, my my last meet, I had some issues with a couple of the coaches, not the head coach, but a couple of the other coaches, you know, talked down upon, I didn't know what I was doing, I didn't know how to coach, blah, blah, blah, this kind of stuff.

Brad Walker: (01:06:47)
And it was all like jealousy issues and it was all kind of garbage. But at, at at the end of the PAC 12 meet in my last year, our team as a team had four and a half points. And my squad, I think scored 19 and a half points, like in the last like hour. So we ended up, I think, I think there was one other triple jump point that got scored. So it was like five and a half points, and we ended up with like 24 and a half. Wow. And my pole vaulters and hydrogen just scored 19 and a half. So it was nice because I was kind of like, okay, who's the one who's doing whatever, you know? And, but anyway, all of my athletes I felt like did what was required. I mean, they were, you know, it's college kids, so you're not getting everybody like working hard, this, that, and the other thing.

Brad Walker: (01:07:29)
But anyway, what I found was that the athletes who complain about your coaching the most are the ones who are putting in the least amount of effort, seeing the least amount of return. And then they need somebody to blame because obviously they're like God's gift to like, you know, track and field and they're gonna be really successful no matter what. So then those athletes are the ones that say like, if I had a different coach, I would've done this. Mm-Hmm. , you know, this coach doesn't know how to coach me. I'm a different kind of athlete. It's like, okay, well physiology doesn't, doesn't play that game. Right. And and so, so you end up getting that kind of stuff. And I think that happens at all levels of sport. And you realize that that's just kind of like, I think it's kind of funny cuz as a coach, you know how you see, how old are your kids? You got, you got a couple kids, right?

Jake Winder: (01:08:13)
Yeah. Five and seven.

Brad Walker: (01:08:15)
So it's, to me, it's kind of like, as a parent, you're watching your kids and you're watching how they navigate life and they do something that's a little bit wrong. You see it from a mile away. They come up with their story of how, you know, whatever it was. And you're just like, well, I didn't eat the cookies, my wife didn't eat the cookies, the jars empty and your brother was over at friend's house or whatever. Right? And it's like, by a little simple deduction, you see what's going on, and then you see their reaction to it and how they're trying to get out of it sort of thing. And I think even at like elite level coaching, you're still like a parent watching all this stuff, like knowing everything that goes on. And like, the athletes don't think that you see it because they're adults, right?

Brad Walker: (01:08:52)
So adults are usually better at hiding different things or whatever, and you end up like seeing all of, and I think it's because as a coach, you're putting the athletes into stress. So like in normal living, you don't see the responses of normal living of a person's day to day. But if you all of a sudden got into a really bad stressful situation, you see a little bit more of like the true colors, right? Right. Who's gonna run away from the problem and who's gonna run towards it trying to help people. Right? Right. You're gonna see that when you have a stressor put on you, and in the world of sport, you're having stressors put on you all the time. And so you see the athlete's response to stressors, and then there's an aspect of it where you hear what's going on behind the scenes of what this person's saying and what that person's saying.

Brad Walker: (01:09:33)
And I, by I wasn't, I was never trying to coach just women. I was just trying to coach good poles. And it happened that I ended up getting, you know, a lot of women and this is a stereotype, but probably fairly accurate, that there's a little bit more gossip that goes on, you know, on the, on the women's side of things. And so you start hearing all these comments and you start understanding who somebody is, and you put all the pieces together and you're just like, huh, okay. Like this is all, it's, it's kind of like the parent looking at the child. You're like, I understand this more than you think, and I understand why your successes haven't been what you wanted them to be. And I understand all these different things. And the athlete doesn't see it yet, and they'll probably see it as they get older and they look back at their career. There are things that I look back on in my own career and I'm like, you idiot. Like Right. If you could have just stayed out of that and you know, stayed focused here, you probably would've done this, that and the other thing. But but anyway, that's a little bit of just a, a rant of, of

Jake Winder: (01:10:24)
Yeah. I, I think I was talking with an athlete's one of our athletes high school athletes parent the other day they called and just wanted to check in and see, you know, what's going on. You know, you know, she, you know, doesn't seem to maybe, maybe she's having a hard time or whatever, and, you know, everybody wants to improve, man, everybody wants to jump a foot higher. You know, like that's, that's the whole thing. And I understand that. And we were talking about it, and I, I wasn't trying to be boastful, but I just kind of said like, Hey, like this situation that they're in right now, like this, like we've, we've got all these poles, we've got this really great, you know, facility now, and, and we've got rough group of really good coaches that are really motivated. And we sit around and just like, we have meetings talking about how are we gonna make our pole vaulters better and how are we gonna make the experience better?

Jake Winder: (01:11:22)
And, and that's our job. Like, that's what we do for our living now. And, and, and I was like, so there really is no, you can be reassured knowing that there really is no other like, really better situation that you're gonna be able to get. But even if you're in the best situation possible, you're going to have lows. You're going to have highs, and you're going to have lows. It doesn't matter if the coach of the year , the U S A T F coach of the year is coaching you the best coach. You know what I'm saying? Mm-Hmm. , it is going to go up and it's going to go down and it's going to go all around. And, and that is, you know, what it is to be an athlete. And, and, you know, in the broader scheme of things, that is just life in general.

Jake Winder: (01:12:11)
Mm-Hmm. is that, and the hard part about the hard part about that, that I struggled with the most as, as an athlete as well, is not turning tail and running mm-hmm. , you know, and, and you know, you're in, let's say that you're in this system and you're trying to get better and you're noticing that you're not, you know, performing the way that you wanna perform. And it's like, well, it can't be me. It's, it must be the system. Mm-Hmm. , you know, it must be the system and, you know, let's try to change the system like it's worked for, you know, in our case over the last 35 years, you know? Yeah. It's, it's worked well and it's worked for tens of thousands of pole vaulters at this point, you know? Yeah. And yeah. And it's like, and it's like, it's probably not the system, you know? Mm-Hmm. Like, it's probably not the system. You probably just need to hang in there. You're probably going through a low spot, and if you hang in there long enough, it's probably gonna come around. And I think a really good, you know, example of that probably is Katie. Yeah. You know, like k it's, it's just like, I'm sure the last, when you, you guys started working with each other a long time ago, but like, you know, out Washington

Brad Walker: (01:13:23)
2017 basically.

Jake Winder: (01:13:24)
Yeah. 2017, I'm sure it probably hasn't been the greatest all the time, you know, last year, remember her back then, it wasn't, she wasn't, you know, I mean, she was a good vaulter, but she wasn't Yeah. The Olympic champion and world championships gold medalist, you know? Yeah.

Brad Walker: (01:13:40)
Yeah. So, to your point, there's a, a few things that I learned as an athlete that I brought into coaching. One of the things that I learned was just like, there's an, there's, you know, a hundred ways, 99, what's, I don't know, skinning a cat. How, how, however many ways that skin a cat is there. Is there a hundred? Is there a hundred thousand? There's a hundred, there's a hundred ways to

Jake Winder: (01:13:57)
Get a cap

Brad Walker: (01:13:58)
. Training is similar, right? So I remember when I was training, I had a certain training protocol that I was doing, and then I taught, I remember listening to Nick, he's training, and he was doing like hill, he was doing all sorts of, of stuff like in mountains and doing the volume that he was doing. I was like, gosh, number one, I don't think I could do it. But number two, it's such a different way to train yet it works. Hmm. And then I would hear how Tim Mack was training, or, and he might have been doing like a heavy gymnastic focus type style of training where, but there was a speed component to everybody, right? Everybody was trying to work on speed, but they all did it in really different ways. And I, I just remember a light bulb going off in my head going, it's not like the micro the microscopic style of training as it is the general theme and who's pushing themselves, who's willing to feel pain and be uncomfortable in it, and then be okay with it, and then just like, run with it.

Brad Walker: (01:14:52)
You know, that's like a super important component to all training is that your body has to be able to do things that's never done before. And when you get people who are not willing to push themselves because it's uncomfortable and because it hurts, you're not going to see the type style of gains that you wanna see. And so that's one of the things that I learned early on was if you have a training program that's effective at building muscle and getting somebody faster while not getting 'em injured, you have a really effective base. That base is going to continue to propel the athlete forward. And another thing that stuck out to me was Timmy Mack one time, this was in his run to his gold medal in Athens. He had stayed injury free for like four years mm-hmm. or relatively injury free. And he ba he made a comment, he said, it's amazing what you can accomplish if you never have to stop training.

Brad Walker: (01:15:41)
And when I look at like, wow, Katie, when I look at Katie, for example, we have a foundation and a platform that allows her to get faster and stronger. And then we've kept her injury free with a few little things here or there, like little ankle rolls and stuff. But through the entire my time working with Katie, she's basically been injury free. And each year she's been able to work off of the year, you know, the previous year's successes and just had a nice ramp all the way to taking shots at the world record sort of thing. And, you know, winning Olympic gold. And it's like, as an athlete, sometimes you don't understand those trends and those trajectories, and you may not understand like the innate stuff that's built into a program that you don't know like is effective. So it's, so it's kind of like, oh, this isn't that much, you know, this is kind of like the last block, the last training block. Well, like, what do you want? You want something that's totally not tried out that's gonna be really jarring

Jake Winder: (01:16:34)
On the body.

Brad Walker: (01:16:35)
They're gonna throw in there for like a new training block, you know?

Jake Winder: (01:16:38)
It's boring. It's, this is boring thing. What

Brad Walker: (01:16:41)
Do you want? Depth jumps off a 10 foot box to see if maybe we can, you know? And so anyway, it's like, it's kind of this very simple process. And in fact, I went to Dan Path when I was coaching and I told him this was my mindset. I said, I said, I'm willing to fail as in my body break, trying to push the world record or trying to get to a level where I could go. And I look back at that comment thinking, that sounds emotion. Like, great. Like I'm all in, I'm so worth it. Yet I'm overriding this simple kind of foundational principle of stay healthy and just continue to get better over time, you know? Mm-Hmm. , and that was my emotion, kind of overriding logic, right? I just want it so bad. I want to go so hard, I wanna do this.

Brad Walker: (01:17:19)
And my emotion was overriding the logic, and he didn't end up doing that. And we didn't end up going crazy in any one direction. But I would've gone there if I didn't have a coach to kind of like reel me in, you know what I mean? And then what the outcome was, most likely I would've been injured and not achieved what I wanted to. Whereas if I just held the course and made slow progression over time, I, I might've, you know, been able to, to get a little bit higher. And so anyway, like you said, that's kind of what Katie's done, and that's kind of a, a big part of my training. It's like you have to push the weight room. Mm-Hmm. , if you're not pushing the weight room, the training load basically isn't enough. And to me, there's only a couple ways to get strong.

Brad Walker: (01:17:57)
One, you do it in the weight room, two, you do it in kind of like a tric based, you know, heavy program. Well, the thing about biometrics over time is they're really tough on joints, right? Yeah. They're, it's great, it's great training. I'm not trying to say we do hurdle hops, we do little like single leg bounds. We do, you know, good plyo stuff, but it's, it's really hard on the body. And if you do a lot of that stuff, you can start, you know, getting injured pretty easily. And in fact, most, you know, triple jumpers, I mean, at some point they're gonna have an Achilles rupture. They're gonna have, you know, a knee reconstruction and because they're plyo heavy, you know, type of people. Oh, yeah. And and so anyway, it's like kind of one of those. So I try to incorporate all the aspects of the best part of iOS and the best part of strength training and do it in a way that's a tried and true program that comes from a lot of, you know, like decades worth of research from like Dan Path, Lauren Seagrave, and all these guys who've helped put together kind of the base or the foundational aspect of the training program.

Brad Walker: (01:18:48)
And then I plug and play different exercises in different days to just make sure the athlete is first and foremost healthy so that they get to continue on the craft of pole vaulting and do it in a way where they can figure out their technical model most effectively while still getting, you know, fast and strong. And so for some people, that's not enough. Some people want more. For some people it's too hard and they don't want the heavy lifting. And it's just like, you realize that the mind that's in the athlete that you're coaching is what lends itself to the success, right? So Katie's mind being able to she complains probably more than anybody on the planet about what we do , but she always does it. And, you know, she always gets it done. And I'm sure there are days where she doesn't push in the weight room as much as I'd like to see her, but the trend is always positive and she's always getting stuff done.

Brad Walker: (01:19:36)
And in fact, if she doesn't, if she has a question or you know, isn't feeling it, she'll always reach out and be like, Hey, I'm feeling this. I don't think I should do this. Is there something else we can do? Instead of just like taking matters into her own hands and just like figuring out what to do. And I've always really respected that aspect of her because I'm always in the loop. Like I always kind of know what's going on, and so I can help kind of navigate those bumpier waters and you know, do a plan B workout if she needs it, stuff like that. And so it's just been, yeah, it's just been the slow steady process that I feel like it's just tortoise in a hair, you know what I mean? It's just, just like the slow, steady process that wins the race.

Jake Winder: (01:20:09)
But that's not what people want to hear Brad

Brad Walker: (01:20:12)
. Yeah, I know,

Jake Winder: (01:20:14)
I know,

Brad Walker: (01:20:15)
I know. There's too much emotion in, and there's, there's too much logic in that, and everybody needs to be emotionally driven right now, as in the state of the world and being mad at everything all the time. And there was, right before I got on the phone, I read an article of like, have you seen the new avatar avatar too?

Jake Winder: (01:20:30)
No, no, no, I

Brad Walker: (01:20:31)
Haven't. I thought it was great. I, it's been getting all sorts of like hate and James Cameron's this and that, and there was a deal where somebody said that James Cameron culturally appropriated the blue aliens like culture. I was like, where are we? , but it's going on here. But no, the emotion, you know, and I get when people are emotional and, and all that stuff, it's just when you, when you are that emotional, you get blinded to logic. And then when you don't understand the logic is when you kind of get lost in the weeds. And, and I kind of hold true to that. And so it's kind of like, as a, as a coach, your job is to try to help negate some of those, those emotions that don't make sense. And then there's a point where you, you just can't. And, and yeah.

Jake Winder: (01:21:10)
So how often do you have to like, talk Katie off a ledge?

Brad Walker: (01:21:15)
Oh, hopefully less now that her wedding's gonna be completed here pretty soon.

Jake Winder: (01:21:20)
.

Brad Walker: (01:21:21)
That's good. No, she you know, Katie again is, she's just a very emotional person. And that's what you need an elite athlete because the emotion that they feed off of is the emotion that allows them to perform well and, you know, jump high under pressure and all those kinds of things. But it doesn't turn off with elite athletes outside of the track, you know what I mean? So other areas of life will be equally emotional in different ways. And with Katie there are days where you watch, you know, if, if you're in a, you, you see this to Luke all the time. He comes in, you see his body language and you know what you're gonna get out of him that day. Yeah. Right. It's just like part of it, right? You see, you know, the person well enough to know good mood, bad mood.

Brad Walker: (01:22:02)
You watch him do a few movements as a nervous system honors, there's nervous system asleep. And then you're like, okay, this is the quality of what I'm gonna get out of it. So with Katie kind of watching her come in, hearing her talk, seeing what she's doing, it's pretty clear whether it's gonna be a good day or a bad day. And sometimes on the bad days, like I have to, you know, wait for the, the, the, the kind of breakdown of that day, which you kind of knew was coming or whatever. And you just kind of let it r you know, you let it ride, you let her kind of go through the emotions that she needs to kind of process, and you talk her through some things. And then the next time, generally she'll come in just crush it and have an amazing session.

Brad Walker: (01:22:36)
And then those sessions are great because you get to be like, remember Monday? Yeah. Are you, do you still think you're behind? You know what I mean? She's like, no, I dunno. And then all of a sudden it'll come out, well, this happened and that happened and my mom called me that day. And none of those things come out the day that you're, you know, trying to coach and having that heart to heart. But then you realize that all of the stuff that caused whatever emotion, anybody, you know, I'm not just saying to pin it on Katie, but that somebody was experiencing most of the time it's like life, right? And they don't know how to process it in life. So then they bring it into sport and then their, their session goes poorly. And then you realize it was just a life problem. And then, you know, you're trying to help them navigate life problems. And when those life problems go well, then all of a sudden sport comes back

Jake Winder: (01:23:16)
A hundred percent. Yeah. I, we had a a situation, not last week, but the week before where Luke got his car stolen. So he like show, he like shows up to the workout and he's like, Hey, or no, he calls me and he's like, Hey man not we're gonna have to rearrange training this week. I got my car stolen and turns out that it was a TikTok trend to steal a car. They're called the Kia Boys.

Brad Walker: (01:23:41)
Oh, wow.

Jake Winder: (01:23:42)
The Kia Boys on TikTok. So I'm sure you have a TikTok and I'm sure that you can go and follow them and, and, and see what the Kia boys are all about. But I guess these Kia Boys, they like go and they, they share like, I guess there's some hack to be able to steal a Kia or a Hyundai, which, you know, produced by the same company. Okay. And so the Kia boys stole Luke's car and just went on Joy ride and then like crashed it somewhere and then, and then poor Luke, you know, doesn't have a car to get to training and Yeah. And so like, for like the next week or so, it was like, ah, man, you know, maybe a week later it was like, ah, man, I wonder, you know, Luke's not, he's not clicking, you know mm-hmm. . And then I was like, oh, remember the Kia voice?

Jake Winder: (01:24:25)
You know, Kia boys? And, and then I was like, you know, where are you at with this whole thing with the Kia Boys? And, and he's like yeah, they've, you know, I'm, I am on the phone all day long trying to figure out if we're gonna get the car fixed, if we're gonna do this. I'm in a rental car and the rental car smells like cigarettes and all, you know, and all of these like this big giant whirlwind and then plus, you know, the work that he does for Rise. And, and so I was just like, okay, you know, as a coach, I just have to be able to reflect on that mm-hmm. and, and not come at him and say like, you're being a woo, you need to suck it up. Like this is ridiculous. You know, you need to come at it and more of like, Hey man, like cut yourself a little bit of slack dealing with a lot of stress.

Jake Winder: (01:25:09)
You know, your body deals with stress. It doesn't care if you have a workout. It doesn't care if you have to pole vault today. Yeah. You know, the stress is there. Your nervous system doesn't just like give preferential treatment to certain Muscle Gro, you know, your nervous system acts as a whole and Yeah. And, and you're going to maybe not be as poppy and, and this and that and the other. And there's no, no question that whenever an athlete is relaxed, no stress, they're in that flow state, that's when they have their best performances. You know? Absolutely. It's just cuz their whole life is kind of coming together to, to have that good performance at that time. Yeah. That's not always true, but Yeah. That's really, it's really hard. It's a hard thing to, to deal with as a coach. What you were saying though, cuz when they walk in, maybe the coach is having a great day. Hmm. And then it's like, ah, well they're not looking so good today.

Brad Walker: (01:26:10)
. Yeah. Looks

Jake Winder: (01:26:10)
Like you leave. Looks like I'm having a bad day too. . Yeah. Looks like today's bad. Looks like today's bad . No,

Brad Walker: (01:26:16)
It's so true. And you know, there is emotional interplay that goes on between the athlete and coach and sometimes you can turn the athlete and they leave with a smile. Sometimes they turn you and you want to go punch the wall. Yeah. You know, it just, it just is what it is. But it, I learned pretty early on that that that performance is a reflection of life. And when you're in a bad state of life, and that can happen from any, you know, number of places or whatever, usually you have bad performances and vice versa. And sometimes you can, like, I've thought this for a while, sometimes you can run on nitrous. Nitrous is for those who don't know in the car world, like a really high combustible material that burns really hot and so you can't run it for very long or you'll burn out your engine essentially.

Brad Walker: (01:26:55)
You can fuel yourself on anger and frustration for a little bit and get some really great practices out of it. But you do that for too long and you're gonna bury yourself and that happens. And so anyway, you can have, you know, like, like if your brother, if your brother was like really mad at the Kia Boys, he might plant the biggest pole he's ever planted, you know what I mean? He's taking out his frustration in the vault. But you can only be mad at the Kia Boys for so long cuz their, their name is so ridiculous and it sounds like,

Jake Winder: (01:27:21)
You

Brad Walker: (01:27:21)
Know what I mean, that he can't hold that anger in for too long. and what's, and what this is what's gonna happen. Hey Luke, hold on buddy. Cuz your insurance is gonna kick in and you're gonna get a better car than your Kia was. Yeah. I honestly don't think I've ever in my life heard of anybody who had a car stolen or totaled in a crash that didn't upgrade to something better. Right. So Luke, you got a blessing in disguise. You're gonna be rolling in like a, you know, some sort of Lexus or

Jake Winder: (01:27:45)
Mercedes or , you know, maybe not if you get

Brad Walker: (01:27:48)
A Ferrari I'll quit and start working for

Jake Winder: (01:27:50)
Rides here pretty soon. But,

Brad Walker: (01:27:52)
But but no, it's true. And, and so and so I think that the, you know, the takeaway and you know, it was funny cuz as you said, Hey, let's do a podcast again. I was thinking back, I was like, maybe I should listen to my other one to even hear what I talked about the first time. Mm-Hmm. and then I saw Mondo's new podcast come on. I was like, no, I would rather listen to that than me. Yeah. So I, I didn't listen to mine. I listened to Mondo's and the reason I even brought him into the conversation was because

Brad Walker: (01:28:17)
He is for a 23 year old, or maybe he's still 22 and he is about to be 23. Yeah. He's got such a mature understanding of not only the sport but his life as it surrounds the sport and like understanding of his, you know, he was talking about going into worlds, how comfortable he was, how Desiree was there with him, how it was like a normal meet. He was talking about how you know, he, he does things to kind of balance out life and then you asked him a question of like, what are the things that you have to be cautious of? And he was, he was talking about how he had to be reminded, not reminded, but he was, he wanted to focus on the love of the sport being the driving motivator for his success, not like the business aspects of it.

Brad Walker: (01:28:55)
Mm-Hmm. I'm just thinking, gosh, not only has he done a phenomenal job, but his parents have ever obviously done a phenomenal job keeping him focused and humble and understanding the important aspects of what he's doing. And as a result of that, as you just stated, his life seems like it's very well-balanced and maintained in a way that he can move forward in a stress-free environment. And as a result of that, he's looking at world records whenever he puts his mind to it. Right. You know, and it's interesting cuz I have like seen the, the, the once in a generation style athletes like a Sydney McLaughlin Mando for example, stuff like that. When you hear them speak, you realize there's this underlying maturity that they have that other athletes at the same age group are nowhere near having. And I'm like, where does that come from and why is that?

Brad Walker: (01:29:44)
But it's definitely there. And when you hear him talk, you're like, I don't know how he has those kind of high levels of like life understanding at the age that he is or like, as it relates to sport, where it's like, when I was 22, 23, I was just running around trying to prove how good I could be. Right. And it wasn't, and I, at the time I thought it was how good I could be, show the world how good I could be, but it was obviously just me trying to prove to myself that I was good. You know what I mean? Like, it's all of these things and, but I had no idea, you know, and as I look back and I can understand my own path and my own career and that I hear somebody at his age do the things that he's done and then hear his like clear understanding of what's going on, I'm like, it's not surprising that he's doing what he's doing. You know, he's got, he's just got pieces and he's figured out how to navigate some stuff that, you know, the rest of us are all just trying to chase when we are in a situation to be able to try to, you know what I mean? Get to the, to the point where everybody wants to go.

Jake Winder: (01:30:37)
Yeah. He, I always talk about his supreme confidence too. Like he just has a deep, deep confidence that is, I don't think anybody can really shake it, you know, like Yeah. Just is like so incredibly confident. Maybe not. I would like to just be a fly on the wall and like see like, okay, like, you know what's gonna be really sorry, that was a broken up thought. What's gonna be really interesting is when they finally released that Born to Fly documentary, because it is, it's, I it's shown in some of the previews that there are some like, kind of behind the scenes, and it shows Mondo getting emotional and, and and things like that. So it would be interesting. Nobody gets away from, from the hardships of life. Yeah. You

Brad Walker: (01:31:41)
Know, I think, I think make no mistake for Mano to do the things that Mondo's done. He's got emotions, like crazy levels of emotions, right? Yeah. And just because he has an interview that seems he's very level-headed and this and that, like to go jump 6 21 plant an 11 seven with chalk in your hand and be 170 pounds and get tossed in the air like that, you're wild. Like he's wild, right? Like, make no mistake when you hear a level head interview that the guy's not wild. Mm-Hmm. . But his ability to harness that emotional energy and put it into what he's doing, I think is really good. And so if you see a blow up and you see whatever, yeah. There's, of course there's gonna be that cuz he is a pole vaulter, you know what I mean? Like he's wild at heart. But you know, and, and one of the things I think that's funny, and I kind of went through this in my career and I think pole vaulters, you know, at least people in the pole vault community, like when you're in it, you think all eyes are on you. You know, like you gotta respond on Instagram and social media to let people know what you're doing. Like Hmm. People probably aren't looking at you as much as you think they are, but when you're in it, it's your whole world and you're putting your heart and soul into it. And so it kind of seems that way. 

Jake Winder: (01:32:59)
Right, right, right,

Brad Walker: (01:33:00)
Right. Like if, you know, LeBron James has a certain tweet, like he expects the world to just like all listen to it and just like, ah, whatever. Like, cool, like that's your opinion, you know what I mean? Like, certain people may just love it and, and all that stuff. Certain people could really care less. Like it's just, you know, it's just sport. But but anyway, yeah, it'll be an interesting documentary. I just think that his understanding, like, it was funny cuz I was just, you know, as I was listening to it, I was like, gosh, man, he like having the ability to have hindsight look back at my own career and understand competitive mindsets and all that kind of stuff. Like, he's got a really good understanding of so many things and it's just not surprising he is where he is. And it's gonna be really interesting to see how things move forward. Especially as the, you know how like, I don't know if you're, if you were like a Conor McGregor fan,

Jake Winder: (01:33:42)
Love Conor McGregor.

Brad Walker: (01:33:44)
, so , I don't know if I love him or hate him, I just, you know, know a bit about

Jake Winder: (01:33:47)
Him, but it's entertaining, man, that absolutely. I mean, I shouldn't say he's a, he's a moron at times, but Oh, he's, oh, for sure. He's so entertaining, man.

Brad Walker: (01:33:55)
Yeah. And, and even like, even a guy like Eminem who's kind of off the rockers these days, you listen to his old stuff and it was just aggressive and this and that and it kind of like set him up. And then you see this, I feel like you see this with musicians a lot. Their old albums are great cuz they hadn't made it yet. Right. And then once they make it, the fire dims a little bit. Right. So con McGregor's trying to be what he became and then all of a sudden he gets de thrown and now it's like, I don't know, is he, is he still that same guy will probably find out in the next little bit. But there's a part of that where it's like the, you know, the certain aspects of life dim the fire, you know, it's like a wet blanket over it. And so it's like, I know Mon was saying he wants to compete until 2032 Olympics, let's say. It'll be interesting to wa can the fire stay lit that long, especially when the sponsorship comes, the money comes, all these things come. And let's say he's still you know, jumping a foot higher than all of his competitors. Like, do the one 50 s still get the same amount of respect that they get this year? You know what I mean? But in, in the year 2030

Jake Winder: (01:34:54)
Yeah. Start

Brad Walker: (01:34:55)
A deal.

Jake Winder: (01:34:56)
It's, that's gonna be be interesting because that's a long time away. Mm-Hmm.

Brad Walker: (01:35:01)
.

Jake Winder: (01:35:02)
Yeah. That's a long period of time. Yep. You know, and I was very taken back by that. I thought he was gonna be like a Usain Bolt, like just kinda like, you know, do his thing, you know, go on his, go on his run and maybe just retire just a little bit early. But yeah. You know, and he is young, like you said, but I, I think that's why like, part of me is kind of just like throwing out these little challenges to him. Like, Hey, come in at six meters

Brad Walker: (01:35:29)
, do it before you're done. Like, if

Jake Winder: (01:35:31)
We, we gotta like, we gotta like, I mean, if you're going into every single competition and you're beating everybody, you know, so by such good margins, you know, I like you said, like what, what, what is, what comes after that? Like Yeah. Do you just try to see if you can be undefeated for like, I don't know, years in a row or mm-hmm. like what, what is the challenge? Like you've, you've won all of these things. Well he still, he still has some work to do for like bu against like bah's, you know, records and stuff like that with like world championships and Yeah. And stuff like that. So I guess that's motivating probably.

Brad Walker: (01:36:14)
Yeah, I think the, I mean the real question is in my opinion, and I talk about this to, I talked about the other day to a coach who I was speaking with, but also I talk about it to my, my athletes, like the fire is the most important thing. Like, is the fire there? Is the fire or not? How long, how can you stoke the fire and how does the fire stay lit without you having to try to continue to light it? You know what I mean? So it depends on whether his success is in the sport, dim the fire, because he's like, gosh, what else is there left? Like once he jumps at six 30 bar and then he has to like wake up and hit a weight session and then go hit a bunch of one 50 s and create a bunch of lactic acid. And he is like, no's been close to me for the last three years. Like, what pushes you at that point? And he's most likely gonna have to figure out like down deep what that is. And he'll, you know, he'll have people look, there could be, you know, there could be Mono 2.0 all of a sudden pushing them and then all of a sudden we have this phenomenal thing in track and field that happens. Right? Right.

Brad Walker: (01:37:10)
And I, you know, I don't know if there's one of those guys on the horizon, but when you look at athletes who've been like, like, and again, I'll pick up, pick out like Sydnee McLaughlin, all of a sudden she ran a 50 point in the hurdles, which is like fast for an open 400.

Jake Winder: (01:37:23)
Yeah.

Brad Walker: (01:37:24)
And it's like now next year she's gonna run the four. Okay. Why? Well, the four, she's obviously not being challenged in the four hurdles, and she's already set a world record to a level that is probably unattainable for the next however long. So then she's gonna turn her attention to something else. And like Ashton Eaton, when Ashton Eaton was at Athlet he took some time off and ran the four hurdles, for example. It was like, you know, everybody wants to dabble in something new. And then he did all the things he wanted to do, and then he retired early. And so it's like, it's gonna be interesting to see just the progression and it, you know, only time, only time we'll tell, and we'll see like how, how that goes and stuff. But I think yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see just how, how the next few years unfold and then what he is able to do. And I mean, I think everybody in the world knows he can jump a six 30. Yeah. And I always thought, I always thought that a six 30 was, was an attainable mark in the pole vault. But yeah, it'll be, it'll be cool to watch it. I mean, he's certainly entertaining to watch. That's

Jake Winder: (01:38:17)
True. That's, yeah. And you, you can't, you can't try to light that fire. You can't be like sitting there clinking rocks together, like trying to be like, okay, let's, let's see if I can light this fire to jump on an 11 seven. Yeah. You know, like, and my, my coach one of my good friends, one of my old coaches, high school coach, he messages me the other day and he's like, Hey, hey man, I signed up for another hundred miler. Let's go. Come on. Let's do it. Let's do it. And, and I've already done one. And, and I, and I was like, and I've been thinking about it and I got this meniscus situation with my right knee right now that I'm trying to heal up. And, and so I told him, I said, Hey man let me get back to you.

Jake Winder: (01:39:02)
I'm gonna see how this meniscus reacts over the next month or so. And then number two is I need to see if I truly want to finish a hundred mile race, because you don't finish a 100 mile race unless you truly want to finish it. Mm-Hmm. , and it's the same exact thing that, you know, all these pole vaulters come up against later on in their career. Like, you don't jump five 80 or five 90 or, or, you know, four 90 or you know, five meters for women if you don't really want to do it. You know? And if that fire just starts to kind of slowly start to fizzle out, there's nothing you can really do to reign it back in. And, and it's, it's just kind of one of those natural paths in life. And unfortunately, once you stop about five years later, you'll be like, you know, maybe I should start training again.

Brad Walker: (01:40:01)


Jake Winder: (01:40:02)
Already gone man. . Yeah. Already gone. No plus

Brad Walker: (01:40:05)
Train has left the station at that point.

Jake Winder: (01:40:07)
.

Brad Walker: (01:40:07)
Yeah. I, I mean I think it's, I think it's, you know, most athletes, I think most, I think all I I would, I would almost be willing to label all elite athletes as like neurotic in a positive way, right? Yeah. I mean, it's, you're crazy. You're just, you, you're, you're pausing life and you're doing everything you can to attain this one goal. And, you know, it becomes, it becomes some neurotic pursuit, and that's what breeds crazy performances and massive successes and all that kind of stuff. And then there's an aspect when those things become achieved and then life starts happening, that I think it's, I think there's a, a natural time to like lay down, you know, the world can't understand it probably if they haven't been in the situation of being like an elite athlete and pushing yourself day in, day out forever. But there are times where I feel like , I, I, a lot of times, I'll use the example, so I don't know if you've ever been like Scottsdale, Arizona, but no, I never have. I lived in Phoenix for a little while. We go down to Scottsdale was where all the nightlife was and stuff like that. Yeah. And you'd go to Scottsdale and you would see you'd see like, you know, 50 something plus women in high heels with a lot of body work done, you know, breast enhancements and lip enhancements and walking around and you're just like, gosh, still, like you're still

Jake Winder: (01:41:20)
Here.

Brad Walker: (01:41:21)
You're still out here doing this kind of stuff. Where I feel like there's a natural, there should be a natural time. Like life pr progresses in a very natural way, right through your young twenties and thirties. You're trying to do all these different things and then you get married and then you have kids and your focus should now be on your kids, and then those kids and your grandparents. And you just kind of like progress naturally and age naturally. And I think that sometimes there's a beauty in an athlete like achieving the things they want and then having the family and then like giving, like, like Husain did, like Husain didn't hold on too long, but he probably achieved all the things that he wanted to. And he like bowed outta the sport gracefully. And everybody could look at his career and be like, oh my gosh, that was crazy. I can't believe he did all that stuff. But he didn't run until, you know, his, the wheels fell off and then it was like kind of sad that he was still out there. You know what I mean?

Jake Winder: (01:42:07)
That's hard to watch.

Brad Walker: (01:42:09)
It is hard to watch. There's a fine line, there's a fine line to that. It's like Jordan maybe played a little bit longer than he needed to, but I respect, or that I respect everything that he did and that the fire was still burning so hot that he couldn't, he couldn't retire. And maybe that's like a Tom Brady or whatever, you know, like they're still out there doing it, but it's like, eh, like if Brady had left after the Bucks, won the Super Bowl in that year, and he was still like 42 or whatever, you're like, holy cow. You know? And then now it's like, mm, I'm not sure if he should . You know what I mean? Yeah. But it just depends on the athlete's fire and I don't know if he's still got it, then keep going.

Jake Winder: (01:42:44)
Yeah. And that's a difficult time just in, in life because you go on to these new, you know, these new phases of life and, and I think sometimes I think like competing at a high level is, is a blessing. And sometimes it's a curse because now I always look, I, I always have something to compare myself to that is very high. Like, it's a very high standard that I always will have to live the rest of my life comparing myself to that standard. Mm. You know, I look in the mirror sometimes, I'm like, dude come on. I just want those abs just to hang on a little bit longer, man. They're, they're just , they're just

Brad Walker: (01:43:27)
Slowly, mine, mine are under there, . They're under there somewhere. I can feel 'em when I flex. I just can't see

Jake Winder: (01:43:32)
'Em. . Yeah. I just want to see 'em, man. And I, I, I, I'm just like, but then I start and then I think it, it's, it is just like coming into like a slow acceptance of where you're at in that phase of life and being like content with that. And I know that sounds terrible because there's people out there that are like, dude, don't ever be content. Yeah. You know, always need more and stuff like that. And, and I'm like, man, well I am comparing myself to whenever I was, you know, like 7% body fat. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (01:44:09)
Yeah. It's not a great comparison. Hormones are raging. They're the highest of

Jake Winder: (01:44:13)
Your life. .

Brad Walker: (01:44:14)
I know. You're at your pinnacle peak of athleticism.

Jake Winder: (01:44:17)
I know. And I look in the mirror and I'm like, oh gosh, , I definitely am not what I once was. Look at me. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I'm not, I'm not like terribly outta shape. I, I've in pretty good shape, but I just am like, man, I'd love to see those I have again. That'd be great.

Brad Walker: (01:44:33)
Yeah. I think, I think that there's a, you know, there's a time and a place for everything. And once the time passes by trying to hold on all you can to it, because sometimes you can put yourself into a sad state of affairs. You know, when I,

Jake Winder: (01:44:46)
You end up on in Scottsdale with, you know, blown up lips,

Brad Walker: (01:44:50)
Blown up lid. So you're the guy with like six chains in his unbuttoned shirt and he's driving, they call him 30 K millionaires, but they're driving a fancy car and then they go to their apartment and you're like, what is happening down here? That's crazy. You know, just image chasers and stuff. And you're just like, yeah, you were supposed to outgrow this phase and for some reason you didn't. And

Jake Winder: (01:45:09)
Yeah. And you just gotta look at the, the younger generation and be like, yep. Well good for you man. Good for you. And enjoy it. Live it up. You know, every workout, take your shirt off. You know, , enjoy it. Man.

Brad Walker: (01:45:23)
It's funny you say that cuz like, you know, we were all there, right? When you're down at 7% body fat, your shirt's off, the sun's out and you're running and you think, and you like look, but you get a little bit older than you look around and you're like, every track and field sprinter slash jumper is shredded. You're all the same. It's all the same. I know. You know? I know, I know. Everybody's gotta shut off every guy's their abs out. You're like, oh wow, I look like that guy and that guy and that guy and that guy. But you're like, no, I'm, I'm special. I'm look at 7%. You know? Ah, it's ridiculous. But it's

Jake Winder: (01:45:51)
The worst, the worst part about that whole thing is when you reflect on it, you look back and you're like, I remember spending the majority of my time thinking that I was out of shape. Fact that like, thinking to myself, dude, 7% I

Brad Walker: (01:46:11)
Should

Jake Winder: (01:46:11)
Be, I mean, you're not, you're not gonna be, you want to be the best, if you wanna be the best, you can't be a 7%, gosh, you'll

Brad Walker: (01:46:19)
Be the best. I need to endanger my organs. I need to be that

Jake Winder: (01:46:21)
Lead

Brad Walker: (01:46:21)
. I need no visceral fat on me at all.

Jake Winder: (01:46:24)
.

Brad Walker: (01:46:24)
Right. no, and, and that's, yeah, that's that the truth of that too is like, then you can deplete yourself. You know, I think you and I had talked about that maybe in the first podcast of going crazy with food, you know what I mean? And it's kinda the idea, the pursuit of perce perfection can sometimes push you further from it. And and then I think, you know, that like, there is that acceptance when you get a little bit older where it's like, well, perfection's probably just a myth in the first place, so let's just try to be, be, you know what I mean, the best I can be in the areas that I think are now important. And if the areas that are as important to you now are the same as when you were 25, then you should probably reevaluate some things anyway.

Jake Winder: (01:46:58)
Yeah. And have objective goals too. Like objective goals are so much easier to obtain than subjective goals. Because like, what is, like what is, I, I talked with Luke about this you know, last year. Last year at this time he was, he was just thin man. He was just like, he was just like, he could just break him and he was hitting these poles and, and he wasn't hitting poles, the poles were hitting him, you know, and, and I was, I was like, man, you know, it's okay to have a little something there, you know? Mm-Hmm. like, it's you, you don't want it to be too much, but if you, if you, you know, you need to have a little bit of, of room for error. Like, if you train really hard one day and you're lifting and you're stressing your, your body a lot, lifting heavy weight or whatever, and you have very small amounts of body fat, you know, your body might have a hard time recovering from that, you know? For sure. So having, having a little something is is, is okay, but you can obviously go in the opposite direction too.

Brad Walker: (01:48:05)
Yeah. Well there should be a tr there should be a natural progression throughout the course of the season. Right. And he should be at his leanest at a championship season and then in his preseason, he should put on a little bit of weight. He should come in a little bit with a little bit more fat on his body. Purposefully done. Like, I've actually sent Katie, this one, I don't know what year it was, I think it was the Olympic year. She showed up and as all athletes would be going in Olympic year fired up. And she came in too thin and I literally told her, I need you to go eat as much as you can and take a week off. And so she went to Florida to visit her, her fiance. And I called him and I said, dude, like seriously, just like feed her milkshakes, drink beer.

Brad Walker: (01:48:41)
I don't care what it is, like get her, get some weight on her. And so that was a goal. And Katie loves food, so it was not a problem for her to embrace that advice. And she did, she came back heavier. And I, you know, I can't say that it did anything, but, you know, she won the Olympics. I mean, it was kind of a deal where it's like she did gain some weight. She did get some cushion. She did have a relatively injury free season. And and I think that's important, and especially for women and especially like with, you know, any of the listeners from, you know, women pole vaulting can be like women's gymnastics and it can be like, you know, some of those sports where especially if they have the wrong coach who's barking at 'em, that they're too, you know, there's that they need to be thinner and they need to, you know, eat less or only eat salads and stuff like that.

Brad Walker: (01:49:25)
You know, you get into, you get into that trap of, of eating disorder and, and ha not having the calories needed to, you know, safely pole vault as in your body's gonna break because it can't handle the demands of the sport. And you know, so hopefully that, I think that newer coaches are understanding that and that the older coaches are, you know, kind of retiring who used to be be that way. But it's a real thing and it obviously caused a lot of injuries and harm and mental harm and all that stuff. And hopefully, yeah. Hopefully people understand that a little bit better as nutrition and all of that gets a little bit more advanced.

Jake Winder: (01:49:58)
Absolutely. Let's take a bathroom break real quick. You good on that? We'll catch you back in in a couple. It's pretty hard not to see that Essex vaulting poles have been popping up everywhere. If you don't know what Essex vaulting poles are, they're the yellow ones. Now you probably understand what I'm talking about. Essex has been grinding hard over the last five to 10 years and has really developed a pole that is very high quality and performs well enough for some of the best in the world to vault on them. Brad Walker, who you are listening to right now, coached Katie Naja to an Olympic gold and World Championships gold using Essex vaulting poles. If you want to purchase Essex vaulting polls, you can go to u s t essex.com and click where to buy at the top to find a dealer near you. We're back.

Brad Walker: (01:50:48)
Yeah. yeah, I figure well hopefully this, hopefully we feel like we're, we're two retired athletes just, just, just talking about stuff, just having a good combo. So apologize any of the young pole vault, pole vault crew who's just, you know, searching for all these pole vault gems. But we can, we can pole vault specific it up if you have anything

Jake Winder: (01:51:07)
You know, to be from honest with you, this this podcast is just where it goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and, and I, I, I re I think, I don't know, I just, I enjoy talking with you.

Brad Walker: (01:51:21)
Appreciate

Jake Winder: (01:51:22)
It. Just personally. Yeah. Yeah. And so whenever two people that you know, ha are sort of like-minded get together, just con tends just flows, tends just flow tends to start going crazy. So yes. I, I would like to I don't want this to be like a, a soap opera or anything, but mm-hmm. , I would like to just kind of get some sort of explanation as to what kind of went down with you and, and Sandy and, and how, how that all is happening. Because it, the only reason I bring it up, first of all, I wanna say I love Sandy. I've done a podcast with her and she's an incredible person in pole vault. And but one of my biggest questions was how do you manage coaching the two best women in the world?

Brad Walker: (01:52:08)
Yeah, no, it's a great question. And, and Sandy and I had a we had a great conversation kind of as, as it all went down and I I think highly of her abilities and skills and I know that this is like kind of the right thing moving forward. So from my perspective, we did, I, I look at her year as a tremendous success cuz the year that she had kind of at the Olympics she, you know, got third. It was, there was, it was questionable if she was gonna make the team. She ended up getting third at the trials, I believe. That's what she got that year right. To Katie. And then I

Jake Winder: (01:52:42)
Believe So what, when did you guys, just so everybody's clear, when did you guys start working together? I forget when that was.

Brad Walker: (01:52:48)
We started right after Tokyo. Yeah. The, the, the season right after Tokyo. Yep. So she, she had moved over and she showed up though. She had had, she had had an in, she had had the pole blew up in Tokyo. It hit her hip. Mm-Hmm. . I think she had some, some tearing and scarring and the sartorious muscle, which is a quad muscle that runs kind of across the quad. And she was having a lot of hip pain when she first got there. So the preseason, it wasn't shaky, we were getting stuff done, but there was a little bit of pain and things were happening and she had to get a, you know, a series of injections and all of that stuff. When she was working with Compton, she wasn't doing any Olympic lifting. She wasn't doing any lyos cuz she had a lot of back pain.

Brad Walker: (01:53:27)
She had several epidurals and things in her back. And I'm sharing this stuff because I know she's already shared it. I'm trying, you know, certainly not trying to say anything that, that is new or that you know, anything like that. So anyway, we were kind of piecing her together, like I said, putting her in a program that has a strong foundation that can get her through healthy. We were increasing her cleans or her Olympic lifting. We were redoing some light bounding back into the program. And then at the same time trying to like fix, you know, a technical model that we, you know, in a ways that we thought were, were gonna be good for her. And from, from all accounts she was undefeated until world champs. So like, she hadn't lost a meet the entire season and then she lost world champs and then she know kind of slid, you could tell that that affected her mindset quite a bit.

Brad Walker: (01:54:07)
So that the back half of her season post world champs didn't go as well as, I mean, she got second, you know, places. It wasn't bad. She just didn't win things that she could have won, I think. Mm-Hmm. . And I think that that, you know, Sandy is, is she a strength of hers is her emotion. And, but the emotion of not doing what she wanted to from world champs on was louder than the successes in the season. And as a result needed to do better and needed to do more. And she had basically called me in for a meeting and just kind of let me know, like, we need to do more and I need a little bit more of your time and this and that. And my time with school is like real, it's just, it's crazy. Literally. Like, it's crazy how I've never been in a situation where I've been this busy and I haven't felt like I've had time to do things that I wanted to do.

Brad Walker: (01:54:56)
And so I didn't think that I could meet what she needed. And I, that she had a couple ideas that I wasn't quite as on board with that she wanted to do. And then we started talking a little bit about the technical model and throughout the conversation I had realized that where like when Katie came, she was just like, tell me what to do. But when Sandy came, Sandy's likes to have a little bit more control and likes her own, you know, reasons and why she wants to do the things she wants to do that is a little bit outside of the areas that I want to focus on for her. So we realized there was a little disconnect between how she wanted to proceed and how I wanted her to proceed and that my time res my time constraints couldn't like meet what she needed slash wanted.

Brad Walker: (01:55:43)
And then kind of realizing like, because of those issues, our working relationship was gonna be affected because if I couldn't give her the things that she wanted, then obviously she wasn't gonna be able to buy in the way that she needed to, you know, going into season two. And so we kind of just both realized like probably, you know, this is probably, you know, it is, it is what it is. It's like as it relates to me coaching Sandy and Katie, I was, I tried my best and I actually had a few, a handful of people compliment my ability to take any emotion regarding like Katie and Sandy and all that stuff and try to set it aside and coach each one as an individual. And all I did, you know, from a coaching perspective was say I have, like, the pole vault is an emotional event, but the physics of it are not emotional.

Brad Walker: (01:56:33)
Mm. Right. Like, getting somebody's step is not an emotional thing to do. And telling people to move their standards or to go up poles when it's required is not like an emotional decision. And so all I would do is watch their jump. I would look at like the little, you know, benchmarks of what needs to happen in any given jump, try to give them the correction and then see what they could do with it. And that's always how I've looked at coaching when I was coaching. I don't get very nervous, and I might have said this on the previous podcast, but I don't get very nervous when I coach. I mean, I certainly have emotion and I'm certainly like don't want the athletes to not succeed. Yeah. But I realized when I was an athlete, like I, if I had a bad meet, it was always my fault.

Brad Walker: (01:57:11)
Like, I never once thought about blaming a coach of mine. It's like I'm out here, like I know what my mid should be, I know what my turnover should be in the last couple steps. I know when I blow through a poll or if I should be going up polls, like I have somebody in the stands who's somebody who can give me feedback, but I'm the ultimate decision maker. Mm-Hmm. . And at no point in my career did I ever think that my coach was at fault for anything. And so I take that mindset and I apply it even if the girls don't agree, even if like Katie and Sandy don't agree that that's the case. Like that's the, that's the world that I coach from. So I'm like, I'm gonna give you inputs. Let's see what you can do with these inputs. If I give you the wrong input, that sucks .

Brad Walker: (01:57:52)
You know what I mean? Like that's my fault. But I feel confident in my abilities to give like pretty sound input. And anytime I get into a situation where I have two choices to make, I always, I almost always give it to the athlete because the athlete's mind give them the choice, I give them the choice. I said between the two things. Okay. Correct. And I'll spell out both choices, right? You can either go up, move your step back six inches, move your standards up 10 centimeters, or you can stay on this pole, be a little bit tighter, and really be patient through the top of the jump. You decide what's best. Because Sandy's the type of athlete who always wants to go up, which I vibe with. I'm like, that's do it. Like, I want you to go up. Katie would rather say, well, Katie likes to go up in competitions, but there are times where Katie's more confident on a pole that she's already jumped on than a new pole that, you know she's never been on before. Right. And so like I'm reading their body language, I'm figuring out what's wanted and then, then I give them the choice because they know that they, I want them to own their decisions. One, because I don't wanna own it for them and then be wrong. Mm-Hmm. not because it's wrong, but because if they aren't bought into it, then it is wrong. You know what I'm saying?

Jake Winder: (01:59:02)
I do. Yeah. So yeah, because that's the thing is that it doesn't really, if the athlete doesn't buy into it,

Brad Walker: (01:59:09)
There's been a number of times, not even with just Katie and Sandy, but other athletes where the clear option is to go up polls, like it's absolutely the clear option , right? And then I'll say, go up polls, it's time. And then you see them get worried and then you have a run through and then you have a bad plant, crash it on the bar, and then finally they put one jump together and it's like, that was the right option, but your brain couldn't handle the right choice. So with an athlete who's not at the level of like world's best, I will normally tell them the right option because they need repetitions to challenge themselves and understand what right means. Right. When I, when I'm dealing with like a Katie or a Sandy and they're going for a medal at a championship, the only thing that matters is what their brain is gonna do with the information given to them and if it's gonna be successful or not.

Brad Walker: (01:59:54)
And so at that point, if somebody wants to go up Poles and I give 'em an A and b option, they're, they're gonna pick the right one and then they're gonna know that it's right because they wanted it. And if they don't want to go up polls, then they're going to auto adjust. Maybe take just, you know, a few percentage off the takeoff, be a little bit, you know, calmer through the jump or whatever and maybe make it work as well. And so there, you know, and, and not always, you know, you can't always do that. Like actually at the Olympics, Katie had a problem in 2021 on the old pacer. Was she on? No, I guess she was on the Essex at then. She had a problem where sometimes she would peel away from the pole and think it was a blow through because she feels herself hitting the bar on the way out.

Brad Walker: (02:00:34)
But it was cause she didn't stay tight. So there was a point at the Olympics where she was like, it's time to go up. And I go, you peeled away, you can, you can't go up yet. Like, it's not time. And she stayed on the pole and I think that's what she made 90 on to win. Wow. And it was a deal where her mind wanted to go up, but I was like, no, I gotta really, that's not the right move right now, but most of the time if Katie's telling me she wants to move up, I'm like, heck yeah. Like, let's go up. You know what I mean? And so anyway that was a long ex explanation of coaching the two of them. It's like I give them the, like the physics of it, you know, where's your step, where's your energy? Where's, you know, you doing the right things, positionally, and I just give them the information and then it's up to them to put it together.

Brad Walker: (02:01:11)
Yeah. And so what I look at was a really big success coaching success from, from my perspective working with Sandy is there's two meets, there's two meets that she desperately wants to win gold at. Oh, you know, a major as in World Outdoor or Olympics, and then the World Athletic Final or the, the Diamond League final. And in both of those meets, she was in a position jumping for the gold. She had, you know, she was sitting in either silver or was in gold, and then somebody overtook her. But in, in both of those meets, she had the opportunity to win gold mm-hmm. . And so from my perspective, it wasn't a failure of like training or it wasn't a failure of anything like that. It was like you had the opportunity to do the two things that you really want to accomplish. And I'm, I'm really happy that we were able to put her in a position to be able to accomplish those things. Now she didn't accomplish those things and I think that led her to the decision that we, you know, sat down and talked about where she couldn't really buy in and all, you know, things needed to change from that perspective.

Jake Winder: (02:02:05)
Right.

Brad Walker: (02:02:06)
And, and we did have conversations, you know, I did have conversations about like the emotional side of it, saying, this is the trend. We've turned the trend. You're healthy, you're moving. Well, she actually planted the biggest poll of her life last season equal to the biggest poll in her life. And her, her body weight is about the same as she's been. And so in her mind, she's like, I gotta be, you know, bigger. I gotta be faster, I gotta be, you know, she didn't say bigger, I gotta be faster and stronger. And I'm like, but no, like the physics equation of it all says you were really fast because you planted the biggest poll you've ever planted. And sure, there you can tweak, you know, a couple technical things and maybe make energy flow a little bit better through the takeoff, but you can't really cheat that she was, she was moving well because she was

Jake Winder: (02:02:45)
Explaining Yeah, if it's rolling through the pit, then it's rolling,

Brad Walker: (02:02:49)
Then yeah, then you're moving fast. And so, so the emotion of what she was trying to do was kind of overriding the logic of what I was seeing. And then I was realizing that my ability to control some of her decisions and stuff like that was, was now becoming less effective because of what she wanted to do and what she thought she needed and stuff. So anyway, we had that conversation and it became clear at a certain point that it was probably like, I told her, I said, look, I said, I, I really don't want to be in a situation where I don't give you the things that you think you need and then you have a bad experience with me as your coach. Like, she's number one in the world. She had an opportunity to do, do some things that she's really wanted to do.

Brad Walker: (02:03:27)
I looked at that as a really big success. I'm not gonna be that guy who ends up holding her back if she thinks there's other areas that need to be explored. And I didn't help her explore those. And so it was like, you gotta explore 'em, you know, like if this is where your heart's at and you think that you need to go do these things and don't understand what we've done together and how we progressed in a particular way then yeah, the world's your oyster. You know, go find, go find that training environment or coach or you know, all the things that it was. And again, everything was cordial and we both understood what was going on and what the decision was. And, and so now I'll we'll see her back on the runway with, you know, Katie versus Sandy sort of thing, I guess,

Jake Winder: (02:04:06)
Which is fine. Didn't she buy a house though?

Brad Walker: (02:04:09)
She did. Yep. She bought a house and her husband, were

Jake Winder: (02:04:12)
They gonna, were they planning to kind of be in this area regardless, or

Brad Walker: (02:04:18)
You gotta get her back on the podcast to figure

Jake Winder: (02:04:19)
Out, figure

Brad Walker: (02:04:20)
Out Sandy's things? I don't know anything. I don't know where she's gonna, you know, what she's doing, where she's going, who she's training with. I mean, I do know that she's doing a little bit of a, with a local group in the area, but

Jake Winder: (02:04:31)
Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:04:31)
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what her plans are. And all I know is that there was there was a period of time where I was, was, you know, I was, I was having, I'm not gonna say that I wasn't having issues with the, the, the entire situation thinking, like, from my perspective, that things went really, really well and it was a really successful season back to number one in the world and injury free. And then kind of being faced with the decision where she thought that a lot of things needed to change and be different, I was like, eh, I was struggling with it mentally and trying to figure out how to best go about it. And then and then I I kind of had like a gut feeling of what was kind of going on. And then I kind of, I, I never, I mean, as, as best I can, I always listened to my gut cuz I think that's just a Holy Spirit knocking on the door saying, Hey, this is how things need to move forward.

Brad Walker: (02:05:12)
Yeah. And so I moved forward in that direction and have felt really at peace with everything and, and kind of know that it was the right thing. And it's been the, it's funny cuz the church that we go to, they keep, we keep talking about the year of Jubilee, which starts in 2023 and the year of Jubilee is like, it's kind of a restful year. It's like giving up excess things and trying to get back to a little bit more of the non-American way of life. You know, having rest and peace and relaxation and you know, time and all of that stuff. And having three athletes who are really on board just like working hard and cranking the vibe in the jump sessions has been phenomenal. Like, they feed off of one another. We've had a bunch of jump sessions now with just the three of 'em where it's like, nobody's left having a bad session. And I'm

Jake Winder: (02:05:55)
Like, that's a good feeling. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:05:56)
And that's not normal, you know what I mean? And you can tell like, I'm pretty, I'm just like a sensitive person to like, you know, we can get off on tangents of what energy is and communal consciousness and all that stuff, but basically like the energy in the facility is upbeat and it's like good. It's like we're all doing the same thing. We're all trying to do it together. People are like bought in, they're focusing, they're working hard. You know, I've had times in the past where I've taught like a certain model and then the year, the next, like two years later, it's just a continuation of the same thought process. And an athlete will be like, wow, this is a great cue. I wish I knew about this earlier. And I'm like, we talked about this day, why? What do you ? Right? You mean, you know, what do you mean about I wish you knew this earlier. And and so yeah, so, so anyway, it's, it's nice. The group that I have is like really fun. I feel way less stressed just even on the building being there. And, and they also, like, they also all understand the school and the schooling and it's, it's fun now because there are certain things that I can help 'em with. You know, this hurts, that hurts, let's, you know, can you take a look at this? Yeah. And that

Jake Winder: (02:07:02)
Start, that's awesome.

Brad Walker: (02:07:03)
That's a fun piece to be able to do and to be able to, you know, it what's really, what's really gratifying and I'm, again, I'm, I'm still a year out of school. I'm not a practicing chiropractor or anything like that, but if I have an athlete on the table and, you know, understand kind of what's going on and kinda like help 'em out, they get off the table, they're like, yeah, it's gone. You know, I'm like, that's

Jake Winder: (02:07:21)
Amazing.

Brad Walker: (02:07:22)
Okay. I guess that's why I'm here. You know, like we can,

Jake Winder: (02:07:24)
Well that's like, I mean like a superpower, like that's like a super coach , like you know what I'm saying? Like somebody who understands, you know, that the health and and longevity side of an athlete and then mm-hmm. also how to get them to perform. Like, you're literally like making yourself into like a super coach. And if you find the right, you know, situation after you are a practicing, you know, chiropractor, that could be pretty, I mean, I, I gotta think that people are gonna be signing up real quick to want to train with you if they, they probably already are right now. But yeah, it is disappointing. I just, I feel like the whole thing with Sandy, like it wasn't, there wasn't enough time for it to mature. Yeah. You know, like, it, it just is like, oh man, like you know, maybe a year or two more and it probably would've matured into a pretty nice thing. You know, I, I guess I would be wondering when you and Katie first met, how was it an immediate like, boom, I'm a lot better? Or was it like a three, four year process?

Brad Walker: (02:08:37)
Year two is where things really started to take off. Okay. Yeah. Year two is where things really started to take off because the athlete goes into the preseason understanding, understanding what's going on, understanding the technical model. All of the early drills and queuing now are already the, the path is there and now they get to refine that path and understand it better. And then they've already, like the first year sometimes is, like for Katie, when I first got there, Katie was with a Russian coach. They were very light in the weight room trying to keep the body weight light. We had given her a lot of muscle. We had given her like good nutrition for the year. And so she comes in with a whole different base instead of tools to even work through preseason on. Right. Right. And you know, so I agree with you a hundred percent.

Brad Walker: (02:09:25)
It is a bit disappointing because yeah. Year one is like, let's just try to erase some of the stuff in the past that hasn't been working well mm-hmm. , and then let's build on it in year two. But I think, you know, as, as time goes on and people have goals that they still want to achieve, the pressure of time starts pushing against them and that elevates an emotional response and then they can't see logic and reason in the same fashion that somebody who's less emotionally involved can see it. Yeah. And that's one of the interesting things about being a coach is I don't, I get to see, I get to see time in a very different fashion. Like I look at, I look at like January to June as like this massive time block. Six months is so much time to get people in different shape and different technical cues.

Brad Walker: (02:10:15)
And indoor without indoor worlds this year means that we don't have to focus on indoor, it's just a couple little meets here or there. Go make a little bit of money. Like let's keep working, let's keep refining. We have so much time. Well, an athlete in November, if they're not running as fast as they wanna be running as like, this isn't working, this isn't working. Yeah. I need to do something different. Right. And I'm like, and so you, you get to see that, you get to explain it. The athletes who understand and have a little bit more faith in the program will kind of understand like, what's going on. You know, the other ones will feel like they're losing time and need to be somewhere else and all that stuff. So I agree. Yeah. It, it is what it is. But I, but I, I also think that I just know that it was like the right that it all worked out the way that it kind of needed to. And that sounds like cheesy, right? It's like thing, you know, it sounds like the had for a reason had a hallmark, a Hallmark card. Right.

Jake Winder: (02:11:02)
things happened for a

Brad Walker: (02:11:04)
Reason. Things happened for a reason. But what I will say is that, you know, Katie had, Katie had a rough year at last year. Yeah. Yes. She's the world champ. She did it in an amazing fashion from a short approach. Like the things that you're just like, gosh, this girl's talented. Yeah. But it was not an easy year. And it was the hardest year that I've ever had working with Katie because I felt like I had a lot less influence on her because her mind was a little bit somewhere else and there was a lot of things. There was the slump coming off of the Olympics you know, that depressive kind of like, I just achieved the, my dream and my, the goal of like my entire life. You know, and, and there was all of that. Plus there was the wedding was a is and was a big thing that k took a lot of K's attention.

Brad Walker: (02:11:55)
And then you have like essentially world's number one training in the group. You know, who's now fire is lit even more because Katie's now in this like depressive post Olympic slump and Sandy's fired up trying to do more. And it's interesting cuz I've noticed, well two things that happened. One, Katie has, Katie has been on a different diet. She's, she found out she was actually celiac, not just like gluten intolerant, but had a cel, you know, had a celiac diagnosis. So Katie's now cha you know, she's gluten free now and she's changed all of her eating habits. But then also like kind of, I feel like there's been a difference in Katie since Sandy has, has not been training with the group. And I feel like Katie is much more now like she was in like 2021 getting ready for Tokyo mm-hmm. .

Brad Walker: (02:12:41)
So I'm kind of wondering if there was a little bit of a deal where Sandy's presence being there was just keeping a little bit more anxiety kind of within Katie's mind at practice sessions. Not from any standpoint of just like wanting to be on a little bit more, wanting to be a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that. And a relaxed, Katie is a good vaulting Katie mm-hmm. and I feel like I've seen that change in her as well. And so it's, you know, really possible that you know, we tried to do what we could with both of 'em in-house and maybe this will be a better thing where they both get to do their thing to compete against, you know, each other you know, outside in, in a, in a different way. So yeah. We'll see, I mean, time will tell how the decision works for everybody involved and all that stuff. It, it'll be kind of fun to, to watch from my perspective, to see Yeah. You know, how the next little bit goes.

Jake Winder: (02:13:26)
It'd be very interesting. Yeah. I, Katie had like so much media attention after the Olympics too. It was like every time I pulled up Instagram she was like doing something at a Browns game or like, or doing a commercial or like, and I was like, hold like so many podcasts and interviews and I was like, dude, it's going. I told, I was talking with Luke about it, I was like, it's gonna be very interesting to see how she reacts mm-hmm. to all of this attention. Cuz it was a lot of attention, man. Yeah. Like the city just

Brad Walker: (02:13:57)
Actually got moved behind her.

Jake Winder: (02:13:58)
Loved the fact that she won that gold medal and for her to come back and do that. That was actually one of my questions on here was if it was a surprise, was, was Katie's gold at the world's a surprise? Or did you maybe see it coming in the weeks prior to that

Brad Walker: (02:14:16)
? No, it was, it was a surprise. It was a surprise. like, you know, I I obviously I would never count Katie out, but her prep, like we had planned on her jumping from full. Here's the thing that was hard for me as a coach last year. I told Katie, I said, look, after she won the Olympics, I said, you need to take the ride. You're about to go on. Like you deserve it, number one. Number two, sport is an amazing thing and we're all going for it. But this is, there's a business component to this as well. You will never be more valuable than you are like, you know, after this gold. I mean, I can't say never, you know, world record, maybe another gold.

Jake Winder: (02:14:49)
No, I understand.

Brad Walker: (02:14:50)
But this is, you're, you're very valuable right now and from a business side of things, you need to, you know, take that ride as well. And I said, you're gonna have an emotional, like exhaustion after doing all this stuff. And so she was a bit more, I would like just use the word vulnerable overall post games. And I realized that I couldn't like be hard on her and I couldn't push her. And I've always pushed Katie and I, I mean she needs that. Katie has this funny saying, I actually think it's, I think it's hilarious. Katie says, I'm not an overachiever, I'm just an achiever. as in that

Jake Winder: (02:15:22)
Is, that is

Brad Walker: (02:15:23)
Hilarious. Yeah. As in if, if she, if I don't say this is what you have today. She's gonna be scrolling through TikTok with her feet up on the couch. But if I say, this is what you have today. She's all in, she's eating at the right time, she's figuring out how to best prep for whatever session it is, and she shows up on time and she gets her work done. And so

Jake Winder: (02:15:41)
Isn't that what you want as a coach though? It's just Well, it's right up too, right, up too minimum effective dose. That's, I love, I love the the minimum effective dose type

Brad Walker: (02:15:51)
Yeah. Stuff, you know? Yeah. As long as the, as long as when you're getting the dose in it's all out and you're working as hard as you can, then yes. It's perfect. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons she's probably been injury free and you know, she doesn't have this like neurosis of I gotta do more on days that she should be resting. So Yeah, she does get, she's great at getting therapy, so she's getting good massage, she's getting good care and so anyway, she, I, but, but I realized that I couldn't push her in Eugene world champs year, like the runup. I couldn't push her, I couldn't, I couldn't push her in ways that I could and I couldn't apply pressure, pressure in ways that I had applied previously. And as a result, I felt like I had very little control over what was going on and go leading into world champ.

Brad Walker: (02:16:37)
She was having a little bit of ankle issues. I, I remember coming back from, I remember going to a meet with an, with another one of my athletes. Like my, my life is just like, I'll go to school and then I'll leave school and drive five hours to the stay the night to coach a meet to then race back to try to give somebody a little bit of therapy or something like that to then Sunday, you know, go to church, come back, study as much as I can to start on Monday. And like, it's been like this for a long time. And so anyway. Is

Jake Winder: (02:17:03)
Is that why we had a hard time scheduling the podcast? That's

Brad Walker: (02:17:05)
What, well, I was in finals week. That was in finals week. Yeah. And this, this quarter I had nine, nine written finals and then three in-person lab finals. So like 12 finals this quarter. Right. And

Jake Winder: (02:17:19)
No, I know it was, I I I just was, it's just so funny cuz I was like, Hey Brad, in the middle of all this, can you gimme three hours of your time here, ? Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:17:28)
Well now I do have the three. Well, I, I don't, but I, but

Jake Winder: (02:17:31)
I, for a limited time, a limited time offer, you've got the, the time. Yeah. So anyway, sorry to interrupt.

Brad Walker: (02:17:37)
No, no. So, so so anyway, I ha I remember trying to race back cuz like Katie's calf was bugging her and need a little bit of therapy. And then Katie was like, I think I'm gonna go out with the girls. And it like, really, like, she probably needed just the, to clear the air, you know, she just, not the pressure, but like in my head, performance driven. It's like, no, your, your cav needs therapy. So anyway, she didn't get therapy that night. She shows up at like Monday's practice session and has to call it short cause her cal's hurting her. And I was just like, it was, it was a struggle for me as a coach, like having patience to see her making decisions that she thought she needed to make. Which I'm not gonna say were right or wrong, but like, it wasn't performance driven.

Brad Walker: (02:18:12)
And that sometimes as a coach is, you know, really hard to see. So anyway, we had, we didn't have time to get back to full approach. So we knew that she could get through prelims from six lefts and that was the plan. I think she got off the ground maybe like one time, like with a tap going in, you know, from eight and had no reps from eight, wasn't confident from eight. And it was the night after the prelim or the date, it was either the night of the prelim or the night after we had dinner. And she was like, what step are we gonna go from at the final? And like, I know her well enough to know that eight was the wrong choice. So I looked at her and I was like, we gotta go from six. She's like, good. And I mean, you know, I knew that she knew that that was the right decision and and then she just she just rocked it.

Brad Walker: (02:18:58)
I mean, you know, it was just unreal. And it was cool because, you know, Sandy had put a ton of work and she was undefeated and she was going really well. But Katie's freaky competitor man. And she just kept pressure. She applied pressure and then a crack came and then Katie just put her foot through the, you know, through the gas pedal and cleared that and completely knocked the wind out of, you know, Sandy. Right. And to the point where, I mean, Sandy and I had conversations about it. It because Sandy's in, in my opinion, Sandy's third attempt for gold was a completely like wasted jump because she had, she had been, I mean honestly she had just been defeated. Like she got, she got, Katie defeated her before the competition was done. And you know, that was a little disheartening cuz I was like, gosh, Sandy's really kicked butt.

Brad Walker: (02:19:44)
She's trained really hard and all that stuff. But but it, it was what it was. And so it was a surprise because to jump, you know, as high as Katie did from short is super impressive. But then to be able to put that kind of mark together with all of the stuff leading up to the meat was also super impressive. And I wasn't, I, I absolutely thought she could medal, but, but I thought it would be, you know, to beat Nina and to beat Sandy and you know, to get, to get to where she did was just like, gosh, what can we do next year if this girl can put all of it together from full approach? Because the, the thing is, and you'd have to ask Katie this, I think she was on, she was on bigger poles from sixth than she jumped in 90 that she won the Olympics on.

Jake Winder: (02:20:22)
Really?

Brad Walker: (02:20:23)
Yes.

Jake Winder: (02:20:24)
Wow.

Brad Walker: (02:20:24)
And for all the coaches and athletes out there is like, when you go from six to full approach, you're gonna go up several poles and you're gonna go up and grip mm-hmm. . So if she's on bigger poles from six and we get her to eight this year and she's capping, you know, one of the four 40 fives, three poles bigger, well she's gonna be five plus in the air. It's just inevitable. Right, right. So, so then it's like, well what can she do now? And that's gonna be pretty darn exciting to see how it, how it goes.

Jake Winder: (02:20:46)
Absolutely. I don't wanna put you on the spot, but what, do you know what polls she was on?

Brad Walker: (02:20:54)
Yeah, I think well I know the biggest poll, I think she's ever cleared a bar on that 95 in Eugene at trials I think was a 4 45, 16 4. Honestly, I think she might have been on like the 18 oh or something like that, the entire Olympics. She never really even went up sticks at the games.

Jake Winder: (02:21:11)
Right.

Brad Walker: (02:21:12)
And then and I think she was maybe in the low 17, like 4 45 low 17 points for that six, six left approach at the world's or yeah. Gotcha.

Jake Winder: (02:21:22)
Six was was her, her grip, you remember roughly what her grip was?

Brad Walker: (02:21:26)
I don't, I don't remember grip. Yeah. I don't really, it's funny cuz like I remember you asked that question to Mondo about where he was gripping up that 21 jump on that 11 seven and you could tell he was like, nah, it's probably a couple inches down from the, I'm like, very similar. Yeah. I'm like, grab the pole. We, we know where we're gonna hold on this pole and then we're gonna go up probably two fingers every time we go up. Or maybe, you know, we won't go up or whatever. But I, the, the grip to me is a, it's a floating, floating deal, you know, plus or minus a couple fingers depending on the day, the plant box, the run, all that stuff.

Jake Winder: (02:21:57)
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. okay, there are a couple things that we still haven't covered that I wanted to. One of those things is, man, what do I do first? First of all, really quick, what workouts do you attend?

Brad Walker: (02:22:18)
I try to be as much as I can. Everything at the track. So all sprints, all jumps, all of that. And then, then so that would be like, yeah, four days a week. Monday, Wednesday, usually right now, like in preseason we'll go Monday, Friday jump sessions, Wednesday, sprint plyo day, Saturday longer runs like longer sprints. Mm-Hmm. . I'll be there for all of those almost always. And and then weight room don't really get a chance to make much of their weight room anymore. That's something that I wish I could because I do think that there are people who don't know how to lift, and not only from a technique standpoint, but what it means to push. And I may have, I may have said this last podcast, when I first got to the W S U, I asked one of my athletes how often they failed and they're lifting.

Brad Walker: (02:23:06)
And he said, what do you mean? I said, how often are you not able to complete what's on, you know, the sheet of paper for the set of reps? He goes, never. And I was like, never. He goes, yeah. I go, when's the last time you guys maxed? And they were like, September or something, or November. And I was like, okay. And do you ever reax throughout the season? And I don't love the whole like max of Remax, that's not how I do it, but I knew that's how the college coaches do it. And I said, he goes, we never re maxed. And I said, are you working off percentages? And he said, yes. I said, so you're taking, especially for let's say a high school kid who's never lifted, you're maxing 'em in the weight room in like September, October and preseason. You're building an entire year's worth of training based on percentages of a kid who's weak, who didn't train in the summer coming in.

Brad Walker: (02:23:46)
Then you never re maxim and never adjust those percentages. He's like under training the entire year in the weight room. So I had this deal where I talked to the strength coach and he was like, opposed to my idea and he said, you're gonna get athletes injured. I go, dude, I lived at the Olympic Training Center and watched all the Olympians lift forever. This is how it works. Like, you don't, like, I'm sorry, but you don't understand how to train people in the weight room. Right. And he was offended and he made me write a letter to the head strength coach saying that if any of his athletes, you know, got injured that, you know, it would've been my fault and all this kind of stuff. Then my athletes started kicking in the weight room. All of their numbers went up and then people were like looking going, oh, I guess I can lift more.

Brad Walker: (02:24:25)
You know, like we created a weight room culture, a weight room etiquette that was appropriate for college athletics and it just wasn't there before. And and so anyway, I do have the, I think the ability to influence how people lift and how people get their strength numbers and what effort level I expect my athletes to be lifting at. Right. Because I think sometimes in track and field people are like, I'm gonna be, you know, quick and fast and throw a band here and do these little, like, I'm just like, dude, how about like, create hormones by like pushing as hard as you can and tearing down tissue and making sure your max is going up and things like that. Right. And so, so when I was when I was at W S U and I had more time, I was at a lot more lifts of like Katie and Kristen at the time. And now I just have to rely on, I hope these people are cranking

Jake Winder: (02:25:13)
And Yeah. Yeah. So for your, you and I have discussed before privately about your cycles. So you're, you're on four week cycles then

Brad Walker: (02:25:26)
Three three, and then it transitions to the rest week most of the time

Jake Winder: (02:25:30)
And then it transitions to a rest week.

Brad Walker: (02:25:32)
Okay. Yeah. And rest week we still lift, but we just, we take out most of the auxiliaries and we'll do the Olympic plus like the major lift of the session.

Jake Winder: (02:25:39)
Okay. Okay. Mm-Hmm. . So whenever you are constructing these four week cycles, is it mainly like you know, higher volume at the front end of the cycle and then it transitions to a lower volume, higher intensity at the end? Yep. And then you just rinse and repeat or,

Brad Walker: (02:26:04)
Yeah, sort of. So like what I do is I'll start, I'll start there. Like I try to have what I consider to be logic and reason behind the progression of everything. So when I first start, the athletes we'll do like general strength body building stuff. We won't load the spine, we won't do super heavy stuff. And then as we get a little bit further on, what I start 'em at, what I started 'em at with hex bar is usually the first lift like lift cycle of the year and it'll be five seconds up, five seconds down, which is awful. Like it's sucks. Yeah. That's terrible. Right. And there are people in my training group, well, who aren't in my training group anymore, like, you know, you don't train me the way I need to be trained. It's like, no, you don't like the pain of that, that sucks. You know what I mean? That sucks. Yeah.

Jake Winder: (02:26:42)
That's hard. Like

Brad Walker: (02:26:43)
I've, like, I've watched athletes like almost cry doing it because they're just like, they don't wanna feel this anymore. And so anyway, it's five seconds up, so you're moving super slow. You get to the top, you go five seconds down and you'll have a set of like eight and then like you have four by eight of that and it's just terrible. Right? Right. But you're holding po you're, because you're going so slow, you're at a lighter weight. So you're working grip strengths when you're doing it, but then you're locking in positions and then you're getting core stability and you're not loading the spine in a way that a squat would. So we're building core strength at a lighter weight. And then after that cycle will transition to a, a heavier a heavier hex bar at normal speeds, but the body's already conditioned to handle the position. You start to have the core ability and all that stuff. And then from a, from the hex bar, we'll transition to a heavy back like a, not a heavy back squat, but a we'll start with a back squat. And normally, like right now we're, we're doing eights, so that's a lot like in terms of reps,

Jake Winder: (02:27:38)
That's a lot. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:27:39)
So because you're doing eight, your weight's less so the joints are getting hit as hard and you're giving the chance for the spine, you'll be able to handle a compressive load and get all the, you know, intrinsic muscles like fired up and ready to handle heavier loads. And then over the next block we'll drop down from like eights to fives and five to threes. And in squats I don't normally drop down below threes cause I don't wanna put like a, like a heavy axial load on the spine of like a one rat max. Cuz I'm like, why? You know what I mean? We can still get good work with threes.

Jake Winder: (02:28:06)
Yeah. I, I what? So I don't know. I go back and forth with that. Like if there's, I, I like the idea of like moving a weight for three or whatever, like a heavier weight for for three. It's like, oh man, yeah I could, you know, let's say, you know, if I moved three 40 on a squat for three, then it'd be like I could, you know, do 3 75 or whatever mm-hmm. . But do you think that there's value in just like there's thinking you can move it, but then when you actually move it, when you actually move that new max mm-hmm. don't you think there's a, some confidence gained there and, and some like reward that could be comparable to the risk?

Brad Walker: (02:29:01)
I, yeah. I mean look, I personally wouldn't have a problem trying to drop on there and do a heavy list. And I know I, I mean I know exactly the question you're asking, but I, what I would say is that you can get the same response by threes. So like you, if you journal your listing, you're gonna know when you're doing a three rep max pr just like, you know, when you're doing a one rat max pr

Jake Winder: (02:29:22)
Oh. But it'll be at a lower weight, so there's a little bit less.

Brad Walker: (02:29:27)
Yeah. So if you're doing three 15 for three in, you know, 2021 and then in 2022 you hit three 40 for three. Yeah, that makes sense. That should be the same sort of response right now our like, you know, testosterone male mind is saying, but I wanna know what I can do for what, you know what I mean? Right, right. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Cause there is, there is something to that for sure. But I think, yeah, I, and I, I, you know, I actually do think sometimes I get to doubles, but I, I just try to a double's different than a single. Right. Cuz a single is just that all out push where a double, you know, you have to have a little bit in reserve. So you, I feel like you're just a little bit more like safe in in how you're, how you're doing it. Right. But then anyway after, so a and then after a lot of times I'll go into back squat, then sometimes I'll throw in front squat fur a cycle and then go back to back squat.

Jake Winder: (02:30:14)
Oh,

Brad Walker: (02:30:14)
Interesting. The front squat. Yeah. The front squat will load like those paraspinals and keep the, like, it just wants to dump you forward front squats terrible. It hurts. And sometimes a front squad, actually, sometimes this year I didn't, but sometimes I front squat before back squat to prep the back squat muscles because it's a heavier load. Right. But, so anyway, like that's kind of how I progress. It's like there's, I'm progressing in a certain way so the body can handle the loads and I'm not just like throwing something really heavy on somebody or if I do like specifically going from hex bar then to back squat, I gotta make sure the back squat numbers are high enough to where they can't put too much weight on and kind of get, you know, get hurt. Mm-Hmm. . Cause it's like eight sucks. So you get, you know, you're not going that heavy if you're doing eight reps of it sort of thing. And yeah. So I don't know what the original question was, but there you go.

Jake Winder: (02:31:01)
Yeah. So you're going from a higher volume in the front end of your, your four week cycle, and then you're moving into a, a lower volume and then you're doing four week cycles for, so that's like, are you having like a, a macro cycle of those four week cycles where, you know, you were talking about how you move through, you know, eight and then fours and then threes or whatever it was mm-hmm. . So, and is there a point where those exercise, do you have a core group of exercises that you just kind of maintain throughout the entirety of the season? Or is there a time where new exercises are added or exercises are removed and things like that?

Brad Walker: (02:31:49)
Yeah, I mean, I, I would say cycling. I, I mean, I just try to cycle, like each block has a focus. So if we're doing like a heavy bench one block, then the next block's probably gonna be like a heavier incline and we'll like, you know, maybe do a dumbbell bench or something. I do have core exercises cause I think that there's only so many exercises that give you the hormonal response. You're looking for the most effectively. So I keep like heavy benches in when I'm trying to keep the legs fresh, but push testosterone in, let's say the outdoor season going into like a USAs for example. But I still always try to hit something in the lower body, even if it's like low volume, high intensity to just make sure the body can still, you know, output that heavy, heavy load. Right.

Brad Walker: (02:32:27)
One of the things that I, as I get a little bit older and then I realize that my, like athletes are getting a little bit older, I sometimes think a little bit more about just the entire chain and opening the chain. So this year I've done a little bit more of like single leg squats with your foot elevated on a high box behind you so that when you're getting to 90 degrees that like, so as hip flexor and anterior quad is getting really opened up. And then I'll do things like sumo squats, which is like feet pointed outward, like toes pointed, you know, to your, to like in the line of your shoulders almost. So you're getting a lot of abductor stretch, but in that you're like opening up the hip complex a little bit. And, and you're just getting like a fascial, like a, like a eccentric fascial load, you know, so that fascia is just like opening up and you're trying to keep the hips open. And little things like that. So most of the time my auxiliary lifting will change a little bit, but the fundamental base lift of like a heavy Olympic plus like a heavy press or a heavy pole is, is a variation of that space throughout most of the season.

Jake Winder: (02:33:29)
Right. Yep. All right. And then after I did the Burg's podcast, I got a text from you, . Oh,

Brad Walker: (02:33:40)
Bud . Yeah, I know, I know what this question is. I told you we, we yeah, we talk about it. Yeah.

Jake Winder: (02:33:45)
But

Brad Walker: (02:33:45)
Go ahead and pose the question so the audience knows.

Jake Winder: (02:33:48)
So, you know, there's just me and Paul Burgess had talked about just kind of shorter higher intensity sprints, you know, almost throughout the entirety of the season. And, and in my opinion, I don't understand personally how like, if I were to do the classic one that I always heard of and and did back in the day was 300 s. It's like, okay, so I'm gonna do 300 s in October and November. And then that's going. And, and the justification behind that has, has always been, well, we're gonna start, you know, with the higher volume, you know, sprints and then we're gonna work our way to may where we're gonna be really fast and poppy. And, and people would always say, well, you know, you're in good shape because you did those 300 s in the fall and it's like those 300 s the conditioning from those 300 s was gone two weeks after you stopped doing the 300 s.

Jake Winder: (02:34:54)
Okay. So like that conditioning from the three hundreds is not there anymore. Okay. Like in May those things are long, long gone, you know, and I personally, I understand there are, there's always a case, you know, for everything. It's, I, I'm not, I'm not like a hard fast rule guy, but like, let's say that a kid comes in and they are very overweight mm-hmm. , like, it's like, whoa, you're out of condition, you got mm-hmm. , you let it go too much this off season. Mm-Hmm. okay. Get some endurance sprints in there and probably gonna fall off, you know, relatively quick. We're gonna be able to get you into some pretty good condition with that. But for somebody who comes in like five to 10 pounds of where they were at last season and, and they're pretty fit and they didn't lose a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, slowly working back into, you know, faster, higher intensity sprints for me, I just feel like I would be spending more time working on, like I was saying earlier, signaling the body.

Brad Walker: (02:35:58)
Yeah.

Jake Winder: (02:35:59)
I, I want you to move fast body, listen to me, I want you to move fast, so we're gonna move fast. I don't want to signal to you about, you know, running 300 s and then last thing and I'll let you talk is running a 300. And then I'll even go down to even even a 100 or let's say a one 50. It's a different stride. It's a different stride than running down the runway. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Running extremely fast for 40 meters is way different than running a 300. So you're like almost training a different stride. Cadence.

Brad Walker: (02:36:45)
Yeah. Well I know that if it'd be interesting, you know, to have a third have Mondo on the podcast, you said one 50 piece is probably, I know, you know, biggest thing and, and, and see Hundred percent. So the answer to that que, cause I texted you and I said I do have an answer. And I, the answer that I have has like three components to it. The first component to it is that running thirties and forties is pretty easy.

Brad Walker: (02:37:19)
Hmm. Okay. And that's not a problem. I use thirties all the time. That's just easy, right? Mm-Hmm. , there's a grit component to doing tough workouts that I think has a physiological, like a mental effect that the athlete can carry into the pre-season. Hmm. Or into the season. Like how hard did you work? Did you do a bunch of easy work as they was explosive? Or did you like actually create grit and really get into some things that, you know, other people would bow out on? Like, I have this workout that's 92nd, there's five 92nd runs with exercises in between. There's literally like no rest. I'll give them 10 seconds. So they'll run, they'll do angling for 30 meters, drop down, do 10 pushups, an anchoring for 30 meters, drop down to 10 pushups, like run 90 seconds. The goal is always over 400 meters.

Brad Walker: (02:38:14)
As soon as you get done, you like put your hands on your hips, I blow a whistle and you're doing sit-ups and you're doing like donkey kicks, which is like this handstand jumping up, kicking your legs out and kind of popping off the ground. Mm-Hmm. , you get done with 10 sit-ups, 10 of those 10 sit-ups, 10 donkey kicks. I start 10 seconds on the clock. You get to breathe for 10 seconds, you hit another 90 seconds. You do that five times. You watch people just, they can't do it. They're, you know, sometimes they're puking. It's like it sucks and they hate it and they hate it. And I'm like, this is like, we're like, you wanna be a professional pole vaulter. Like we have to put you through some stuff that makes you feel like you are creating work ethic and grit and you know, that you put together a pre-season that people would struggle to, to, to stay with you. Mm-Hmm. . So there, so there's a mental component for, for one thing. Right. The second

Jake Winder: (02:39:11)
Thing. Agreed. Agreed. I agree with that. I think that's very valuable. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:39:15)
And I will, and one of the reasons that I put it back in is because when I started working with like Dan Path, we didn't really do anything long. We didn't really do anything hard. We do like 90 meter up backs and it's like you run 90 meters, you desell, you come back and you come back. Or like, maybe we did one 50 s every once in a while and 6 1 50 s is terrible. Right? Everybody's on the ground after number six if you're cranking hard and all that stuff. But mm-hmm. , it's like, what happened? Like to the just, you know, just like you're in the middle of it, you hate it, you want to puke, you feel you're dizzy and you're just cranking. I was like, why when we get to the highest level of our performance, do we get rid of the stuff that like, feels like foundational work?

Brad Walker: (02:39:51)
And I was like, I'm gonna throw it back in. But so that's, so that's one is from the mental side of it. The second thing that I particularly like, you were talking about signaling to the body and this like image immediately came to my head of of a race car. Like we could look as, as we're sprinters, like we're essentially race cars. Well do you know what the race cars do when they first get on the track? Cause they drive slow to warm up the tires. Mm-Hmm. and I look at like, not only what we're doing in a micro, you know, three week block standpoint, but like the entire season and I think they mirror one another. So as we get into the season, we gotta warm up the tires. Mm-Hmm. I don't want somebody sprinting 30 meters as hard as they can in the first week.

Brad Walker: (02:40:30)
I mean, they're not ready for it. Their joints, ligaments, tendons aren't ready, the muscle base isn't ready. They're a little bit heavy. They're gonna be slow. Yeah. You can sprint them into shape, but there's, there's we gotta warm up the tires. And one of the things that I mean by warming up the tires, I look at it is warming up the tires, number one. But I look at it as an oil change when we're doing the kind of preseason that we do, which has a lot of, like, we'll do a workout where it's a 100, you do exercises, you do a 200, you do exercises, you do 100 and it's another one that just sucks. We are, as anaerobic athletes, we barely ever breathe hard. Right? Right. Like if you're doing a 30 meter cell, you're not gasping for air when you get done with it.

Brad Walker: (02:41:09)
We start to get these like fascial restriction patterns because we don't open things up very much. So the intercostal muscles are between all of the ribs. Right. If you're only doing small explosive stuff and never breathing heavy and your lungs are never expanding, your intercostals are gonna be a little bit tight because the ribs are meant to expand. So we're doing all these exercises where you're taking huge breaths of air in and not only is your breathing, but your diaphragms moving up and down, which is moving all of your organs. And now your organs are moving around and the organs have to move around because all of it's facily connected. So now you're getting like increase of blood flow oxygenated tissue through all of your like intercostals and your ribcage. You're using your lungs to flush out all of like the organs and moving all of like the viscera around, which is important.

Brad Walker: (02:41:54)
You're moving areas that haven't moved for a long time, so you're clearing out metabolites and toxins and things like that and you're getting blood to tissues. Like when these guys are done running, I mean you were to put your hand on any part of their body. I mean they're super hot, right? You're, you're getting blood to areas. Whereas somebody runs a couple thirties, you're like, you're not that hot. You know, because it's all like anaerobic based stuff. So I look at it as kind of this oil change, we gotta get the gunk out of the system from the pre-season, or sorry, not the pre-season, but the off-season of eating potato chips, going to the bars with your buddies and all that kind of stuff. And you're cycling through all of the fluids of the body. You're getting big lung expansion, taking it, a bunch of oxygen, clearing out a bunch of co2.

Brad Walker: (02:42:35)
And then as a result you're also creating a little bit of like a metabolic boost. So then you have higher fat burning throughout the rest of the day. Right. And you know, we have extra fat coming in from the off season that we wanna get rid of. And at the same time, then you're also prepping all of the joints of the body. Cuz none of these things are max. Right. 90 seconds is not a max effort. Right. It just sucks cuz you're getting into the aerobic capacity stuff. So then we're starting to get the joints lubricated and we're starting to get the muscles activated, but not in like this ballistic explosive way. And then the, so the, so that's a big thing. I call it like changing the oil. We gotta do our oil change for the, the season. And then the third component of it is setting up for work capacity.

Brad Walker: (02:43:16)
So the way that my, the way that I write my program, like I already said is we're gonna do, we're gonna like four by eight. We're right now their squat is gonna be three by eight and two by five. So they're doing, what's that? 24 and 10, so 34 reps of squat. Right. When I'm doing the heavy, long endurance stuff in the body, the body we're, we're creating like work capacity and yes, it's not like ballistic explosive movement all but it's basically like I'm giving them a little bit more endurance. And then as we start transitioning into our early weights, my athletes need the endurance to do like four sets of five, five second up, five second down hex bars. Like, cuz if Right, you're just doing a couple 30 s and you go into a, you know, that takes, I don't know, I'd have to pull out, you know, the thing and figure out how, I mean at, at, you're eight reps at 10 seconds. So you're at a minute tw a minute 20 to just do that lift. I mean that's, you know, that's a lot. It's

Jake Winder: (02:44:10)
A

Brad Walker: (02:44:10)
Lot's

Jake Winder: (02:44:10)
A long time. It's a lot of time under tension. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:44:12)
A lot of time under tension. And that's just, and then you got several sets of that, plus you'll have an Olympic before that, plus you have auxiliary after that. And so I'm looking at it from a work capacity standpoint is that I'm building work capacity on the beginning workouts of the year. So then they have a higher work capacity and less fatigue as they're getting into the weight room. And then that transitions to, you know, better recovery in between sets, the body's working in the efficiencies and all the energetic systems to get the creatine phosphate back up to get the ATTP back up. And then they have a better capacity for regenerating at t p and creatine phosphate in the latter part of the jump sessions. So it's like, so if we do the oil change, we do the mental aspect of it, but then we're bumping work capacity so that our weight room and jump sessions can be a little bit longer and a little bit, you know, at a higher standard for a little bit longer over time.

Brad Walker: (02:45:02)
And and then as you stated, as we're getting into like a USAs or a world champs, we're doing thirties cuz we're just doing ballistic high, you know, high, high velocity movements mm-hmm. . But I don't feel like by doing the early stuff we lose the ability to do 30 meters come June. Like I don't think that, oh, I need like a bigger window of short runs to be like further along in short runs, you know, come June. So, so, so that's kind of like the three tiered answer of why I'm doing the longer stuff. And what I will say is that I don't look at the longer stuff as a speed base cuz that was, I think one of the things that you and Paul were alluding to in like, why would you do longer stuff? Not doing it for like sprint mechanics and I'm not doing it for like working speed, I'm doing it for the three reasons that, that I just said.

Jake Winder: (02:45:52)
Like a, a mental and then physiological response is what you're looking for. So, yeah. Yep. And I think that's a clear distinction that we need to make is that you are not saying that these workouts are going to make you run a 40 faster, you know, it's, it's more of increasing your workload capacity, flushing the system at a crucial time that the system needs to be flushed. And then also just developing that grit to, to be able to, you know, do that. And, and I I, I don't think that any of those things are wrong and I, I think that that's a, the, a really good way of looking at it. I would be curious if you have to change the oil again in a certain time in the se you know what I'm saying? Like, like is there a a time where you change the oil in the middle of the season? Well,

Brad Walker: (02:46:46)
We, we do rebate for the outdoor season. Yeah. But it's not nearly what I, when I rease I increase volume everywhere, but I generally don't pull out jump sessions and so we don't end up, like, we don't rease in the same way. Mm-Hmm. , we don't rease in the same what we, we, we rease we just don't go through like the, those style of workouts in the same way. But all the, all of the, you know, all of the exercises after u s a indoors or after, after world indoors is over, we'll go to a heavier volume, volume block to get 'em ready for, you know, holding, holding on a peak from, you know, USAs until worlds or Olympics or whatever.

Jake Winder: (02:47:22)
Got you. Got you. Okay. last thing before we, we wrap up here I got another text from you about Toby Stevenson's podcast about the whole tapping situation. , but then, but then I just heard you say that you tapped Katie or something. Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:47:42)
Okay. Yeah. So gosh, I do remember, I forget exactly the context of what I said about that. Oh yeah. Look, I, I mean, Toby's great. I, he's a great coach. I have no Right. You know, I'm not trying to say anything bad about it, but he, he started talking about like the art of the tap and where and how, and I'm like you might be over, over complicating this whole tap thing in my opinion. Right?

Jake Winder: (02:48:07)
Yeah.

Brad Walker: (02:48:08)
You gotta know where the athlete is gonna take off at and then you gotta, you know, move quick enough and, you know, push 'em whatever. I think that look every, everybody, this is human nature. So there's, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this no matter what people will, it's a self-protection mechanism to support things that you do. Right. So Right. Sam Kendricks is really excited about, and he should be, how efficient his jump is. To think that the guy can jump 6 0 6 on a four 90 pole to me is like, I didn't even think that was possible. Right. That's an amazing achievement.

Jake Winder: (02:48:45)
Right.

Brad Walker: (02:48:47)
And he, there was a period of time where everybody was talking about efficiency and I'm like, yeah, but beating you saying bolt in the first 30 meters of a race and then losing to him like, don't talk about your block start. Nobody cares, dude. You just, just lost. Yeah. And to think that, you know, he wouldn't trade it to be able to be like slightly less efficient, which he might even not be, but to hold five 20 and then to go jump six 20, like he'd make that trade. Yeah. And th this isn't a knock on him. He, he would make the trade because we're trying to, we're not trying to be the most efficient pole vaulter in history. We're trying to jump the highest. So at least I was, and I think most people, you know, who, who are competitors think the world record would be amazing, but he's gonna highlight how efficient he is because that's something that's really talented and something he does really, really well.

Brad Walker: (02:49:33)
Like, so there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's great that he's that efficient. He certainly was more efficient to me cuz I was on five twenties and I only jumped 6 0 4. And you know, I, I kind of think that's where Toby's tap thing comes from. I did it. So I think it's like really great and it's like it was great for you, like you needed it. Mondo made a point that I think is Toby was saying that he got value out of it because he got to jump on his meat poles in practice.

Jake Winder: (02:49:57)
Right. Yeah. I found that interesting.

Brad Walker: (02:49:59)
Yeah. There's, but to Toby also never left the ground unless he had a tap. But Toby was a great competitor and I'm not trying to say he's mentally weak. There's ab Toby is absolutely not mentally weak when it comes to pole vaulting. In fact, the fact that he could collapse a lung and wreck in a meat and then come back and have a great season is a testament to how mentally tough that dude is.

Jake Winder: (02:50:17)
Right. Right.

Brad Walker: (02:50:19)
But the opposite side of the coin is every world record that Manos jumped has been up holy. He is never jumped on. Like, you don't have to be on it, you just have to be confident and you have to unwrap the pole. You gotta tape it up and you gotta go freaking kamikazi that dang bar. You know what I mean? Like right. And right. So, so I had sent you that text because I do tap every once in a while, but people, it's very well known that people get addicted to taps. Hmm. It's like very well known. Right. The fact that Toby had taps all of his whole life was either because he was addicted to them or because he thought there was value to them. It doesn't matter what my opinion about his taps were, it's just that I won't tap Katie all the time because I give Katie like a tap or two a session only when she goes to a new run or she goes up polls and she basically has to ask for it.

Brad Walker: (02:51:07)
Right. But I know that getting her off the ground one time on the new pole, letting her feel the pressures that pole is important to her, her confidence rises up, she realizes it's not that hard and then she'll go do it on her own. But I won't tap somebody consistently enough to have them get addicted to it and think that it's now a part of how they practice that. I'm like, I'm against that personally. And again, that's not to say that what Toby did is right or wrong and that's, it's just I was, I was chuckling because, you know, he started talking about like the art of the tap and I'm like, I dunno if I can jump on board with this whole thing. Right,

Jake Winder: (02:51:39)
Right. Yeah. And he, he and he did say in that podcast that it's not like he's like force, he like forces everybody to like, I have to tap you and this is the only thing that I do or whatever mm-hmm. . it was just that, that just is one of those subjects, it's almost like the bottom arm subject in the pole vault. You know, like it's just one of those subjects that gets your, people get very polarized on it and you know, should you tap or should you not tap. And it's just an interesting thing. So I just kind of wanted, I just, you had mentioned about tapping Katie and I was like, oh man, I didn't, I just didn't expect that. Yeah, that, that you do that every once in a while. Look,

Brad Walker: (02:52:18)
I think it's a useful tool, but I think it becomes a crutch and it becomes addictive. And I've seen people who can't leave the ground without a tap. Like I, I'm thinking of a girl specifically, I'm not gonna name who it is just cuz I don't want to, but it's like she has to have a tap in practice otherwise she won't leave the ground. And I'm like, that's not how you, in my opinion, that's not how you instill confidence into somebody. I also don't love the idea of always jumping off of a little box to like help, help an athlete out. It's okay as a tool every once in a while, but when you start jumping always on a box, then all of a sudden at practice you wanna jump on the box again. You wanna jump on the box and I'm like, you're changing your takeoff angle. You're effectively changing how this is gonna feel. You're doing it as a crutch because it's a little bit easier. So how about we just do the hard version, but that feels consistent, you know, always. Right. And so anything that, anything to me that be, that can become like an addictive crutch as I'm, I'm against, but that's not to say they're not useful tools in certain situations and if an athlete can gain confidence by doing it one time, I certainly don't think that it's a negative thing.

Jake Winder: (02:53:17)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will say this, Brad, that you are the U S A T F coach of the Year. And I think that one of the biggest things that has enabled you to do that is your ability to not rule out anything and to apply logic to every sort of decision that comes across your plate. And, and it's just, it's really cool because there are some, some people that you talk to will, you know, it's like my way or the highway and it seems very cool that you just consider basically everything. It's like, I'll just consider it, I'll think about it, you know, I'll think about it and I'll apply some logic to it and then if it goes through the ringer and it comes out the other side, you know, that it, it's a good idea, then I'll, I'll continue to do it. And I think that you're really going to, I don't know, just I, I I just am looking forward to seeing the future of possibly combining an elite training group with a chiropractic practice and your, your abilities to help people in the future is gonna be pretty cool. So I just wanted to say thank you and if there's anything else that you wanted to mention or, or whatever, then floor is yours.

Brad Walker: (02:54:39)
No, I appreciate it. I mean, hopefully this was hopefully there was some, some good pole vault conversation in the mix of all the areas that we talked about. You know, I I I I wish all the athletes, you know, that I've worked with, I mean hopefully success and how they, how they move forward it has been nice to kind of limit the group size to, to the three that I'm working with. And we're cranking and things are going well. So I'm excited for the year. I'm excited to see how everything transpires. I appreciate, you know, all of your support in the Pole vault community as it relates to my you know, future. I, again, I've always thought of having my own training facility and then in a, you know, the treating in it. But I think, you know, that will become clear as I get a little bit further down the road of how and where I live and what I'm gonna do and whether it's more of a Cairo based practice or a vault based thing with Cairo attached to it, time will tell. So we'll we'll see. But I, I'm enjoying I'm gonna be enjoying a little bit of life freedom again once I get outta school and Sure. Hopefully, hopefully it becomes clear of where I should head and what I should do after that.

Jake Winder: (02:55:45)
Heck yeah. All right, well thanks a lot Brad. And this is the one more jump podcast. Catch you guys later.