35. Paul Burgess

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Australian Olympian, 6 meter club member, and on of the worlds premier coaches Paul Burgess hops on the podcast to discuss what an incredible season that his athletes had including his athlete Nina Kennedy's incredible performances at the World Championships and the Diamond League Final.  Paul was so open and honest about his experiences as an athlete and the tough times that have come along with it.  This is a "must listen" episode, especially if you have ever struggled to find your way in the crazy world of the pole vault.  Thank you so much for such an incredible conversation Paul!!!

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Transcript

Jake Winder (00:00:00):

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the One More Jump podcast by Rise p Vault. Today's episode is with Paul Burgess. Paul is the head p vault coach at the Western Australia Institute for Sport. And then I think he explained it in the podcast better, but he works with like the national team as well. I don't know if he's the national team, you know, pole vault coach or, or whatnot. I think he explained that in the podcast, so I should probably pay better attention. But anyway, he's also a former Olympian and former six meter pole vaulter, and he went through a lot of interesting things in his career. And then also, you know, after his career struggled to get, you know, find himself, I guess after his pole vaulting career. And I think I really wanted to talk to him because it's so important that people understand that these pole vaults and Olympians and you know, people that we might put up on a pedestal, they struggle at times.

Jake Winder (00:01:17):

And it's important to see that. So then we understand that no matter if you get to that next level or you get to that next pr or you win the state championship, or you win the Olympic gold medal, the human struggle doesn't ever go away. So it's best that you learn how to deal with that, with that. And and he's, he's learned how to deal with that to the best visibility, but he was so open and vulnerable for throughout this whole podcast, and I just really appreciated that. And we lined up on a whole lot of things, which is really fun, and it makes it a lot more interesting. And because if you listen to this podcast for a while, you know, that I struggled to still struggle a little bit. Finding, you know, something that can fill the, that void of, of athletic you know, being an athlete, being strong and being fast and being the best at something.

Jake Winder (00:02:21):

That is something that is very addictive, my friends. But, but yeah, so anyway, it was just so cool to talk with him and him being so open and honest. It's, I, some people are, they just are not cool with just telling it how it is and being real. And I think a lot of people hide those, you know, sorts of feelings. But Paul was like, You know what, man, this is who I am and this is what I'm, you know, this is just what it is. And, and yeah, so super, super nice guy. And this is another one that was difficult because we're in totally different time zone. He's in Australia during this podcast, and and yeah, so it's always interesting winding those, those podcasts. So, but anyway, hope you guys enjoy this podcast with Paul. S

Speaker 2 (00:03:33):

One

Jake Winder (00:03:34):

More thing before we get started. There were a couple times where the audio audioed goofy and maybe dropped out for just a second. I apologize about that. We're doing this podcast literally across the world, and this is just as, as good as we can do for right now. But yeah, so apologize about that and enjoy the show. You know how it is. It's just, it's hard, man. It's, as you get older, your time, time just slips away. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:04:06):

So it's, it's been great coaching again, and just doing the whole thing again as a coach and all the, like, getting, being all my friends again. Yeah. You know, full circle. And you know, like they were like my best friends when we were jumping like, you know, Brad and Tim and, and you know, Jeff and all that. Like, we were like, you know, so tight, right. And Toby, and then you sort of just go away and you sort of like, Oh God, well, when will I ever see them again?

Jake Winder (00:04:36):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:04:37):

But it's been awesome. Like, we were, we were really good friends then. And it was still just sign down.

Jake Winder (00:04:42):

Yeah. Well, now you're back and, and we just, we roll into this thing and, and it's super laid back. So we just, we just roll in and yeah. So I got, I mean, I guess we could start there. I mean, you had a crazy season that was heck of a season for you guys, man.

Paul Burgess (00:04:58):

Yeah, yeah. It was yeah, it just felt a bit like Selma and Louise. Yeah. Like we were just on the run the whole time.

Jake Winder (00:05:06):

<Laugh>. That's what it looked like. I follow you on Instagram. Yeah. I'm like, man, this dude is all over the world, man.

Paul Burgess (00:05:12):

Yeah. Well that was really fun though. Like, I I loved every minute of it, you know, I just you know, and obviously Nina was just doing so well. Kurt was doing it. Kurt was doing okay, and then, and just had a bit of a disappointing world champs, but the last part of the season was really good for him too, and really rewarding that we sort of pulled it back together. But yeah, Nina, Nina, the, the, she just had a crazy year that's just sort of life changing for her and Yeah. And I hope, and I believe it's just the start for her.

Jake Winder (00:05:46):

Yeah. So, yeah, and I was really happy. You, you had mentioned about Curtis and that that was really nice to see that because I was there. My, I coached my brother at the World championships and yeah. And so I, I saw him you know, in the prelim, and I was just like, Oh, man. But that was so nice to be able to him to bounce back and have, have a couple good ones, you know, at the end there.

Paul Burgess (00:06:10):

And, and he was just like, you know, even though he was sort of suffering a bit, he was so supportive. Nina, like, the way he just was, he was such a, a legend about it. And he's just become such a good guy over, over the last few years. He's really matured. And you know, we've been trying to sort of set up a team type environment but it's hard with individual athletes, but he truly ha you know, took the hard road and, and sort of didn't want to, didn't want to be down around her and, and made sure he was up for her. Right. So it was, it was pretty impressive from him.

Jake Winder (00:06:46):

Yeah. Yeah. The televised portions, at least in the States they, they kept on calling him, her coach, and, and like, it, the video would panned to, to her and him, like him showing over the iPad or whatever. And they were like, Oh yeah, this is you know, Nina and, and her coach. And I was like, I don't think that's the right thing. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:07:09):

Doesn't, doesn't, it was good though. He was kind important. She, she did start to sort of really like having him there, even in Zurich. She was sort like, he came, she sort of said, I'd like you to be there. So he came to watch, and during the warmup or after the warmup, Nina came up going, Where's, where's, where's Kurt? You know, she wanted, it's like a security. She sort of wanted to know that, so he'd come up and wave and just sort of, she felt, you know, the team was there.

Jake Winder (00:07:33):

That's awesome. Yeah. So how do you, how do you, Well, what, first of all, what's your role? Like, what, what exactly like is your title or your role or whatever in, in Australia?

Paul Burgess (00:07:43):

So I'm, I work at the Western Australian, Western Australian Institute of Sport. And I, and that's where we have in like cahoots with Athletics Australia, the National Pav Vault program. Okay. So Athletics Australia invests into waste, and then waste supports the, the program. And I'm the head Paul coach for that. So it's essentially the, the main players, the marque guys are Curtis and Nina at the moment. We've got some sort of you know, junior to sort of just, just after junior kids sort of coming through. And then a kids' group. I've got another coach who I work with who, you know, probably works a bit more. We actually try and work together and I try not to sort like separate, try and, you know, we're a program not a single coach. Right. So yeah. But we just got different areas that we, we lead. So he leads probably the, the pathway squad a bit more. And I'm probably tasked with the elites at the, the moment probably just cause he, I, I started off with them. He came in a bit later, but essentially you know, we collaborate in how we program and, and I include him in all that.

Jake Winder (00:09:07):

Right, right.

Paul Burgess (00:09:09):

But, but we also have a team of, of staff that help us. And I really try and operate as a team. So we've got strength and conditioning, biomechanist we got an embedded physio sports psych nutritionist and stuff. And I, I really try and try and, you know, keep the team part of it and, and give them ownership over their part. Right. I feel like it gives, makes them more invested.

Jake Winder (00:09:38):

How does an athlete gain access to your program?

Paul Burgess (00:09:46):

So generally it's to be sort of, we're sort of figuring it out and we're trying to, we're trying to argue for different things at the moment, but generally, say a junior who say qualified for the world Junior championships and made the team or whatever, would probably just go on the lowest level of scholarship. Which is coaching and, and just the support. Not a lot of financial support or anything. And it sort of goes up from there. The, but we've now, we, the junior squad, we've sort of argued we have to be working on the next generation. Right. Or else we're doing ourselves out of a job

Jake Winder (00:10:23):

<Laugh>. Right, exactly. No,

Paul Burgess (00:10:25):

They'd like us to, they want, they want results now, of course, which is normal. But we, we believe we gotta keep working on, on you know, developing athletes for the, so we, so we can have someone to coach in the next <laugh>, you know, five years.

Jake Winder (00:10:42):

Right, right. Well, it's, it's pro, you know, a lot of fun whenever you are coaching the final product, you know, like, and, and you're, and that's, you know, but the reality is, is you gotta teach kids, you know, pretty young. And you gotta, and if you want to have those vaults that are going to kind of follow in your system and things like that, you gotta, you gotta start 'em early, you know? And, and yeah. Hopefully they

Paul Burgess (00:11:08):

Understand it. Yeah. And, and, and just keep, you know, even just having a squad coming through, not, you know, not all of them are destined to be Olympians or o Olympic champions or anything, you know, So but, but the squad needs to, you know, we need to need to include athletes on a bit broader level than just purely if they are talented enough to win a gold medal. Otherwise, it just, you know, Cause essentially you never know where that comes from, you know, that that comes outta nowhere, sometimes diamond in the rough, but, but the, the culture of the squad is important. And so in that case though, you know, cuz we don't wanna make people that we, you know, probably aren't gonna live that make a living out of it, we really try and make it an enjoyable experience for them. So, you know, it's not gonna be that we're, we're not selling 'em down the river. Right. You know what I'm saying? You're gonna make the Olympics when we don't believe they can. It's still gotta be an enjoyable time. Yeah. And, and yeah. So, you know, it's hard to kind of, like, I've seen it before where you, you get athletes to commit to everything, give up everything else, and make them commit a hundred percent and then they just go nowhere and they just end up angry <laugh>. Yeah,

Jake Winder (00:12:25):

I bet. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

Paul Burgess (00:12:27):

Which is fair enough, I think.

Jake Winder (00:12:29):

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. That's interesting. So you talk about this, you know, sense of team and like, that seems pretty hard to attain when you have, you know, indivi elite individuals, especially because there's, there's probably such big differences in the needs of Yeah. You know, elite athletes and I think like in the states, like in the states, there's just like kind of different sects of like, okay, there's a few good vaults in this area, there's a few good vaults over here. Yeah. But I think a lot of 'em just trained by themselves. So how do you manage personalities and, and Yeah. Create that sense of team?

Paul Burgess (00:13:17):

Well, and that's the thing, you can't, we're not, we're not gonna, I'm not gonna ask someone to that they tell someone they have to be best friends with this person and that have to like them. Right. I guess we come up with sort of, you know, agreed value or agreed behaviors that is the bare minimum. And I guess I'm talking about team as a, as a whole as far as like, for me working as a team with the, with the with the service providers and us. And it's a lot to do with me not operating as a lone wolf. Right. And not getting advice from people and not letting anyone in on my program and sort of not having checks and balances <laugh>. Right. So a lot of us sort with that, but then obviously it's just better if we can get the group. You know, they can be, we, we need them to get along and, you know, and all that. But we have definitely had athletes that don't like each other much, but they, you know, and so we, we be smart about it. We're not gonna put them in a room together when we go to nationals or we're not gonna make them train together all the time.

Jake Winder (00:14:27):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:14:27):

You know, we just ask, they respect each other and and leave it, leave it outside the, the track. But, you know, it does feel like a good vibe at the moment, I think, you know. And I think that, look, I, I've been in the position, you know, to probably end up talking about it where I was training with Steve and how competitive that was. I think it's, at the moment, it's a decent situation with Kurt and Nina not competing against each other. Right. and you know, but I could still see how hard, how hard it must be, Kurt to watch Nina achieve all this stuff. But he's just so genuinely happy for her. That's awesome. You know, he wants it, he wants it himself and I believe he'll break through and, and sort of get, get to that next level.

Paul Burgess (00:15:15):

Whether it be, you know, sort of, I don't know, you'd never know with medals and stuff, but, you know, sort of be in the mix. Be in the mix. Yeah. Yeah. so I think, you know, by the, his attitude and stuff is gonna help him, help him get there too. But yeah, I mean it's, it's just a, the team sort of thought comes from I just think if you coach on your own and take charge of everything, I see a lot of coaches lose perspective of what they're doing right and wrong and they don't have anyone to, to give them, to tell them when they're going overboard on something. You go down rabbit holes, I do it all the time. I need someone to check on me <laugh>. Right. And I want someone to call me out. Like I wanna show up programs, someone can see a, a mistake. I want someone to see it and tell me before I make the mistake.

Jake Winder (00:16:10):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:16:11):

Yeah. I don't get me wrong, when they fix it, I'll take all the credit

Jake Winder (00:16:15):

<Laugh>. Yeah. <laugh> for sure. Well, it's, it really is that checks and balances. And there's, there's things in my life too that are exactly like that. I own a business and run it with my brother and my brother checks me all the time. He's at eight years younger than me. And it takes a lot to, you know, for your younger brother to just be like, Hey man, that's a stupid idea, you know? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you gotta be able to take advice and things like that, you know?

Paul Burgess (00:16:46):

Well, my six year old boy am I a nine year old girl, they have no problem giving each other, you know, sound, Sound and honest advice.

Jake Winder (00:16:56):

I bet. Yeah. 100%. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So what do you think what do you think happened with Nina? Like what

Paul Burgess (00:17:08):

Do you think? I think, you know, Sorry, what was that? Did

Jake Winder (00:17:13):

You see it coming?

Paul Burgess (00:17:15):

Yeah. I mean, look you been building over the last few years. I just think you know, she, she just wasn't, she just had, couldn't get a run for a while. She had some, you know, the situation a few years ago. She's just having some injuries and some mental health stuff and everything and just couldn't get flow. And I, I just think she was always a, a great natural athlete that was her speed was just her weapon. When I sort of took over, I sort of thought gotta just let, let her speed come back. Cause I sort of felt like, and, and, and she's a tech, she's, I think she's got a great technique, but she's not a technician as far as, she can't drill, but she can do the end product. So she's all feel, so I don't, I try to not coach her too much, you know, and bold, I sort of say to her, You know what, it feels like you know what you're aiming for, aim for that power pocket.

Jake Winder (00:18:10):

Right. Right.

Paul Burgess (00:18:11):

And then she'll be like, What did I do then? And what did I do wrong? Then I'll like, just didn't get it, try

Jake Winder (00:18:17):

Again. Didn't hit the power

Paul Burgess (00:18:21):

Instinct. Sort of know when it's right like that. So, I mean, obviously it's not as simple as that. There is some coaching and stuff, but but I tried to get her speed back and her speed really has improved and she's gotten, she's really improved a lot in her speed. We've tried really hard to kind of get flow. We tra you know, balance of, of training right. Load so that we get a lot, you know, keep her as healthy we can. And yeah, I think, I think a lot of it from now I think we've gotta train her as hard as we can. We've just gotta be careful not to go over that red line. And she can be a bit niggly at times. She can sort of be a bit fragile here and there, but, Right. We've been good this year right. At managing anything that comes up. And I just knew that once she, if she got to the dance floor in good, in good shape, mentally, she needs to know that she's in good shape and healthy. I just know that she was gonna form, she's not a choker at all if she's in good form. So she'll jump to her form if she jumps poorly, it's cuz she's not in good form.

Jake Winder (00:19:40):

Mm. Right.

Paul Burgess (00:19:41):

She's not like jumping four 90 and then she'll go and jump a four 40 somewhere. So

Jake Winder (00:19:47):

She's pretty automatic when she's in good form. Mm.

Paul Burgess (00:19:49):

Once she gets going she's pretty. Yeah. And she's easy to coach as well because she jumps. So, so you know, consistent,

Jake Winder (00:19:59):

You said that you needed to get her speed back. So what, was there a time that it like dropped off or did

Paul Burgess (00:20:11):

That, It's hard to, this is one of things I think say how do you get, how do you get, have the, the speed out of them by just deadening them or just, you know, being too conservative and not letting them sprint enough and you know, things like that. And I just think it just became like she just really wasn't doing much sprinting or much hard stuff cuz she was trying to you know, be careful and not, not get injured or whatever. But I sort of took the other route thinking, Well you need to train her. You need to build capacity so you don't get injured.

Jake Winder (00:21:09):

That's really crazy because that is almost the same thing that I went through with my brother Luke this year. I was like, Hey man, you know, we're, we're tip toeing around. We're tip toeing around these meets, you know, and, and, and you know, you're going into the week of a meet thinking that, well I can't do anything Monday cause I gotta meet on Saturday. I can't do anything Tuesday cause I gotta meet on Saturday. And it's like, hold up man. If we do that too many weeks in a row, we don't have any training. You know? And, and so I was like, we're gonna have to be okay with maybe sacrifice in a couple meets to train hard, you know?

Paul Burgess (00:21:50):

Yeah. Well do you know, what I started feeling is that, you know, Nina was having these minor little muscle injuries last year, which would, you know, we'd, we'd got so precious I think, you know, so she'd have a little muscle injury. We'd scan it and, and we'd see something cuz MRIs show everything. Right. So then that would lead to like three weeks of modified training and no vaulting. And then she'd come back, first couple of volt sessions, she'd sort of, something else would pull up, saw and then we'd do the same. And then this year it started to hap happened a couple of times and I just was, you know, brainstorming with some people and I came, I sort of thought, Do you know if, I think it is, I think it's not, it, the, the, the reason she's getting injured is cuz she's not vaulting.

Jake Winder (00:22:36):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:22:37):

So she's, she's, every time she comes back from doing a rehab program, the vaulting is too much for her. So I'm like, I think the vaulting needs to be her rehab. So I was like, she needs to get continuous role thing done, just kind of, even if we lower the sessions and just do make sure we keep getting involved, sessions done. You know, and I had some pushback and people were saying, you know, well where's the sort of eccentric strength and this is going? And I said, Well, it's the exact amount of eccentric strength you need. It's the exact amount, it's the vaulting is is actually the exact amount of strength you need or whatever, you know?

Jake Winder (00:23:18):

Right. It's a perfect training for a pole vaulter,

Paul Burgess (00:23:21):

<Laugh>. So also I believe it's, it's actually building resilience and capacity and, and and that tend like, look, you know, how do you know that's the case or not? But I, I have a, I just tend to believe that that's what happened is she started the more we just kept vaulting. Cause she kept, you know, to start with, she was having little things where she's like, Oh, I think my quad's a bit funny and all this. And I just was like, let's just see how it pulls up. Let's just keep, you know, let's just, you know, be careful but keep going.

Jake Winder (00:23:52):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:23:53):

Right. You know, rather jump rather than jump at shadows all the time. But it's a real tough balance cuz you don't wanna injure someone as a coach.

Jake Winder (00:24:01):

It's so, you know,

Paul Burgess (00:24:02):

You Yeah. And you just, I mean, the guilt you feel when you do tell 'em it'll be okay and then it's not okay <laugh>.

Jake Winder (00:24:10):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but at the end of the day, I think, and this is, this might be a super dumb way of looking at it, but this is the way that I I look at it is whenever I was vaulting, I, I would have something like a little tiny thing show up and I'd be like, Okay, all right. Now as I got older, I'd be like, what are the chances of that little tiny thing exploding? Like I had plan, I had plant fascitis. Like what? Yeah. What, what is the, what are the chances of me rupturing my plantar fascia? You know, <laugh> like, it probably just hurts, you know, and you probably can work, work through it, you know.

Paul Burgess (00:24:48):

And, and I think you know, we all in been, I was guilty of it was jumping at shadows in the end you sort of lose perspective and you start not knowing what's a real injury or what's not right. And so that became a bit of a problem. So then we sort of had to reset, go again and and just, yeah, it just, just panned out quite well. We got some comps done in a row. She had good results. And it just sort of, I, you know, I knew that, I knew that she was jumping, she was jumping seventies in training every, every session in the lead up to world champ. So I knew that she was in good shape. But sometimes when that, when you're jumping 70 in training, the problem is you go to co and the pole you're jumping 70 on, you start blowing through. Right. So you so about finding the right pole to do it. So really it was just as long as we get get on, get her on the right poles at the right heights, I knew that she would you know, be there at the end.

Jake Winder (00:25:48):

Right, right. Yeah. That's that is, it's a really difficult thing. But I think if you can with an athlete, like you're talking about who, like she's just a feel athlete, you know, she, she's, she's a feel she gotta she's gotta feel it and she's gotta feel the flow and feel all that once you get the ball rolling with somebody like that, it just starts picking up momentum, you know, that's

Paul Burgess (00:26:12):

What happened, you know, third attempt, opening height and, but then from then on, you know, and I was just like, you know, I was still even, it was with the balls at four 80 and I'm still actually like, I was still kind of like tearing up from like that stress that I was going through at the opening height <laugh> just a lot. You know, it was just a lot <laugh>. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But God, I was, that was just so, you know, it was such a sliding doors moment as well because she third attempt, she just snuck over it. She almost blew through, she went up pole and it almost blew through on a bigger pole than she's ever sort of started on. And

Jake Winder (00:26:51):

Well, you know, you know that if she's ga if she gets through that, it's game over, you know? And so you would hate to see her no height on the best day of her life, you know, just because we weren't on the right pole or whatever.

Paul Burgess (00:27:04):

And, you know, there is that, that could have happened. And there are, that does happen to people and you just, you know, that's such a hard thing to take.

Jake Winder (00:27:15):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:27:16):

Yeah. Brad Walker in oh eight, Brad Walker in oh eight at the Olympics or whatever, you know, it's just, it doesn't, it's just, Yeah, it's tough.

Jake Winder (00:27:24):

Yeah. Cause she was in such good form, you know,

Paul Burgess (00:27:27):

Things sort of swung our way this year. And then, then from there, momentum built as well. I think she started, then her confidence came up after that and she, I think had finally felt she belonged. So then she got that win. And me in Monaco, you know, we came home, she came back, she'd been ill and we flew. Or she had like had gastro, you know, so she wasn't feeling well and then she came and she just grind, you know, did a grindy in Lasan not feeling well and still got second. And I was really pumped with that. Yeah. And I just, you know, I was playing it cool before Zurich going, Yeah, I really hope she's, you gonna get on the, you know, top three and all that. But to be honest, I really wanted her to win. I really thought that she should win.

Paul Burgess (00:28:14):

I felt like she, if she jumped as good as, you know, if they all jumped well, I felt that she was the best Walter at the time. Right. so, you know, but I didn't wanna sort of get ahead of myself. But yeah, really that was an amazing, that was an amazing result. That last one, that Diamond League final, just amazing. She's had a lot, she's had a lot to get through over the last few years. She's had some real some real adversity. So I, I'm just so pleased for her that it's that, you know, it's coming together for her because sometimes it seems like it's not gonna will, will it ever work out for her?

Jake Winder (00:28:51):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:28:52):

You know, and yeah. So it's just starting to, hopefully it's the start of a bit of a, a bit of a run.

Jake Winder (00:28:59):

Isn't that the hardest thing to get an athlete to to, to feel like they belong, you know, feel like they belong with the best and I am one of those guys, you know, or I am one of those girls, you know?

Paul Burgess (00:29:13):

Oh, well. And that, that was, that was me to a tea back in my career. I just know. So imposter syndrome, 7,000.

Jake Winder (00:29:22):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:29:22):

Right. But, but yeah. And, and it's part of the, it's the, your career starts to build that for you as well as things go wrong and stuff. I mean, you might, like, I think Nina had a, you know, she probably had all the confidence in the world when she was 17, 18, and then she had a few things go wrong, a few injuries, sort of got schooled a few times. And then you start to believe you, you know, I don't know if I'm kind of per, you know, got what it takes. I'm not the same those guys who seem to just fine all the time.

Jake Winder (00:29:59):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:30:01):

So you gotta sort of Yeah. The few, you kind of, you kind of going against the grain in a number of ways.

Jake Winder (00:30:08):

Yeah. You just don't, you're just trying to be a part of the club and <laugh>. Well,

Paul Burgess (00:30:13):

There are some people, I mean, I think, I, I think that there's some people who just naturally feel confident and feel that they belong. And that always amazes me, you know? Cause I, you know, I used to look at people that seemed like they were like, you know, they were like the same as me, but they just looked like, I was like, we're on tour and they sort of felt like they were confident. And I'm like, how does that happen?

Jake Winder (00:30:39):

Right. Right. Yeah. Like Mon Mondo one of those people who just, his confidence is just like, gosh

Paul Burgess (00:30:45):

Dang man. Well that's, that's one thing because his, why would he not be confident, you know, with Mondo, But, you know, say these are people who weren't jump, You know, Steve back in the day we, when we were training together, I used to just like, I remember I was, I jumped six and he still only jumped about five or 75. But I, he was like, he just, you know, innately was a really confident, his ability. And I used to think, God, how does he, And it used to essentially he would achieve things that he had no right to achieve time. Like he'd do like, you know, 70 or something. And he did like, and one day jumped like 87. And I'm like, I could never have done that. Cause I wouldn't have even, it wouldn't even occurred to me.

Jake Winder (00:31:30):

Yeah. If

Paul Burgess (00:31:31):

That's possible. But, but, and I think that might be the difference. I often wonder, you know, like, cuz the, the and I were really tightly matched. I sort of went one way cause I, I was just walk sitting there waiting, you know, waiting for it all to come crumbling down. You know? Cause I thought that's what, you know, essentially I was, when when are people gonna figure this out that I'm a fraud? Whereas just, yeah. Steve just sort of had that champion mentality. Right. You know, I just might not have had.

Jake Winder (00:32:06):

Yeah. Do you think that you having that mentality can benefit Nina and Kurt because you, you can, you know, the traps, you know, the traps that you can get yourself into mentally, you know?

Paul Burgess (00:32:22):

Well, I don't think there's much, I don't, you know, you you, your past career, your sort of stories that, you know, you go and tell them about how legendary you were back 15 years ago. There's not much to learn from that. You know, really the best lessons you've got for your athletes are the things that you did wrong and, you know, had cost you. And you can sort of you can use your failures as a, as the best advice that you can hope that they don't make the same mistakes. Right. And essentially I know that, you know, I think back now and I think I sort of did my own, I did myself in a bit, you know, like I sort of like, I had, I, there was lots of issues going on. There was lots of drama going on and I wasn't in a great space and stuff.

Paul Burgess (00:33:12):

And I, you know like I, you know, I was super jealous of Steve and I was really bitter and twisted in the end. Yeah. But I think essentially I just you know, I just didn't, I, I think I probably was so scared of Steve cuz I just thought he was just so much better than me when, you know, I just, I don't know why I sort of you know, it's super embarrassing cuz I was kind of you know, I feel like it was cowardly how I sort of handled things at the time. And I just wish I had been a bit more gracious and a bit more able to sort of, to sort of kinda like, you know, just, just sort of accept what I was and, and be okay with that.

Jake Winder (00:34:07):

Yeah. And just stay

Paul Burgess (00:34:08):

In your, Cause I'm really proud of my career. I'm really proud of my career now.

Jake Winder (00:34:11):

Yeah, right. Yeah. When you look back on it, Yeah. It's, but it's hard to stay in your lane. It's hard to stay in your lane and it's hard to not look at other people and, and things like that. And, and, and I, I struggled with that all the time.

Paul Burgess (00:34:25):

Yeah. Yeah. It's just funny. You just always this just why this person's got everything I want.

Jake Winder (00:34:33):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:34:34):

Know, and that's just that's the dark arts.

Jake Winder (00:34:38):

Yeah. The dark arts.

Paul Burgess (00:34:42):

That's, that's never gonna end well when you, you know, <laugh>,

Jake Winder (00:34:46):

No, not even 12.

Paul Burgess (00:34:48):

Focus off yourself when you take your focus off yourself and start feeling just angry about what others are doing. And essentially setting, like, making your whole life about trying to beat someone else that you have no control over.

Jake Winder (00:35:05):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:35:06):

It's like, you know, it's like when the guys say, you know, like, I'm gonna win. It's like, how do you know that you, why don't you just execute as best as you can and see and make it hard for other people to be

Jake Winder (00:35:19):

Right. See you

Paul Burgess (00:35:21):

Other people do, you know you can, you can jump as well as you can and see if that's good enough.

Jake Winder (00:35:29):

Absolutely. So you and Steve, so did you and Steve get like, get along whenever you're training together or was it,

Paul Burgess (00:35:36):

You know, Yeah, I talked to Steve about this. I've like come to, Cause he's, he's one of my best mates. It's complex, but, so at the time it was more him. I was in Perth and I, and then he wanted to move over and I, you know, felt that that was gonna ruin everything for me. But, and you know, a few other people were sort of gaslighting me a bit on that. Steve never did any, he was always honest with me up front, but I guess I was just, my resentment turned towards Steve. My, I was jealous of him and fearful of him. But I was still, we still good mates. I was keeping it, don't worry, I was keeping, I was, you know, I was just being nasty behind his back. So That's ok. <Laugh>. Cause I'm, I'm a good person, you know, <laugh>, Right?

Paul Burgess (00:36:23):

No, but, but I wasn't so much that it was more internal. And essentially he was my best friend too. So like he was we really were brothers, but I just had resentment towards him that he, you know, he didn't, I've talked about it after. He's like, I never noticed. And I'm like, I just had to come clean. I had to come with you and tell you that I just had this, all this, There was so much of me that just was wanted you to fail, you know? And I, you know, just, it was a, it was a big process for me cause I had a tough time retiring. But yeah, I just essentially Steve did nothing wrong. Steve's always been a great bloke. I was just intimidated this kid coming up behind me who I essentially believed was had more talent than me and, and yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:37:16):

Just you know, just didn't handle it that well and lost my lost focus on what I was doing. And essentially that was the beginning of the end. But yeah, I sort of I think there's reasons why I got to that stage as well. When you sort of like, you made to believe that you are, you know, only good cause of one thing or whatever, and when that thing's gonna be taken away from you, you go, Well if I, if, if, if that's all, if, if I can only be good if the situation is like this, which I've been told and you are changing the situation on me, you know, that, you know, laws of deduction, I can't do it right. Sort of thing. So you, and I mean obviously you're not thinking that straight either. You're pretty, you're pretty emotional about it.

Paul Burgess (00:38:07):

But yeah, so then I just didn't cope and I felt sort of frustrated and angry and felt like I just got like as soon as Steve came, I felt like, you know, cause I was a sort of pin up boy for, for the Institute of Sport. Then Steve came and essentially I just felt like I didn't matter anymore, you know? And that was really tough when I sort of stopped jumping and I didn't really, I stopped just sort of, I was sort of like waiting for them to call and ask what I was and sort of, no one did, you know, <laugh>.

Jake Winder (00:38:42):

Oh.

Paul Burgess (00:38:43):

And that was, it was like, wow. Like, I, I really, yeah. No one, no one's noticed.

Jake Winder (00:38:50):

What was, what year was that? Was that before 2000 oh

Paul Burgess (00:38:55):

Nine essentially was my last year.

Jake Winder (00:38:57):

And what was your last year?

Paul Burgess (00:38:59):

Oh nine.

Jake Winder (00:39:00):

Oh 9 0 9 was your last year. Okay. Yeah. So when did Steve move over?

Paul Burgess (00:39:07):

Oh six.

Jake Winder (00:39:08):

Oh six. And

Paul Burgess (00:39:09):

To be honest, we had some of the best times ever. We were traveling through Europe. I, so I loved him. I just, I just felt like he was taking what was mine. Which again, this is like it's pretty, it's pretty hard to talk about cause it doesn't, I don't come across that well and I don't, and I shouldn't cause I was being a brat really. Right. And no, you don't own anything. It's not yours.

Jake Winder (00:39:35):

Right. And, and the thing is, is you know, if, if people

Paul Burgess (00:39:40):

Are honest, if he's come and trained with me and have fun,

Jake Winder (00:39:43):

Right, Right. But if people are honest with themselves, I mean, I think that you're just somebody who's shooting it straight like this, who I am. Yeah. I just have to, this is who I am and this is what I felt. And, you know, that's that, you know.

Paul Burgess (00:39:56):

Well, yeah. And, and, and I think I think I, I can't really tell that story in a way that if I start telling that story as though I'm like I don't think it would come across genuinely if I tried to sell myself in a good light <laugh>, you know? Cause essentially I don't think there is essent, I just was being spoiled and felt like I had someone, you know, he was coming, taking all my things off me. Mm. And I didn't handle it very well. There was other things going on, other things at play. But yeah. And then, and then I just really was lost after that. Which, you know, I, I ended up just not knowing what to do after, after p

Jake Winder (00:40:44):

After your, after your career was done.

Paul Burgess (00:40:47):

Yeah. So that led to a, you know, dark five years of, of drug addiction and you know, obviously all sorts of problems that come along with that. You know, cause I, I had a family and my parents and everyone and just so it was just you, you not that. And I take it, it's, I, I, I made my choices. I do think some of the, some of the, I, I hope I don't sort of leave athletes feeling like I did, is I, I don't think, I think I was, there was there was a lot that happened that led to me feeling pretty like low self worth and all that sort of thing. That sort of, but then I, at the end of the day, I still made my choices. And, and, and to get clean in the end was cuz essentially, you know, the whole time I was angry and blaming and this is their fault, and I'm, they led me to this. And to get clean essentially I had to do the same thing and just go, you know, this is I gotta just accept that this was my choice. I've made these choices and it's gonna be my choice to get out of it.

Jake Winder (00:42:00):

Wow.

Paul Burgess (00:42:02):

But just hearing that podcast you did with Steve the other day, I was just think listening to him talking about, you know, his run throughs and all that sort of stuff and thinking that was his addiction. That was like me. You know, like, and, and as he said, when you hit rock bottom and then you lose your, you gotta lose your ego and just go, you know what, all right. Back to square one. And now you can fight. So like the ego that's getting in the way and, and just refusing to look inwardly. But essentially that's same way. I think so many of these things, so many mental battles and all that sort of stuff are, you know, are really closely aligned. Addiction, you know, eating disorder stuff. A lot of mental health stuff. It's, it's really all coming from the same sort of place. And there's so much similar stuff that sort of driving it.

Jake Winder (00:42:56):

Right. Right. So do you think your, maybe your identity was maybe a little too wrapped up in pole vaulting? Totally. Or Totally. Okay. Yeah,

Paul Burgess (00:43:05):

Totally. I didn't, I thought the thing was you get, I was getting, I used to get treated better than normal. Normal as well. And I sort of, I think, you know, and I, I was earning reasonable money and stuff. Then you stop and you, you sort of, one week you're trying to be the best in the world at something, and the next week you, like you, my mum's telling me, Oh, like I saw a, a job advertised to stack the shelves at the supermarket in nighttime and, and maybe you can go for that job. And I was just like, and I remember thinking if, how can I, like if, if my friends saw me or someone from school saw me stacking shelves after they think I'm this Olympian guy and all this sort of stuff, I would die of humiliation. Right. And now I think how, who's that? Like, you know, I think, you know what's, I've got kids now if I have to, I will freaking scrub toilets to put a roof over there without any sort of shame.

Jake Winder (00:44:10):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:44:10):

You know, and so yeah, essentially I was so thought I was so far above that.

Jake Winder (00:44:17):

Right. Yeah. That, so

Paul Burgess (00:44:20):

I didn't, I didn't think I was arrogant at the time. I didn't think I was an arrogant athlete. I wasn't outwardly arrogant. Yeah. But you get this sense of entitlement.

Jake Winder (00:44:28):

Hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I struggled really hard. I mean, I was not at your level, you know, obviously. But the thing is, is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what level you're at. Because the thing is, is that I had 100% of who I was just built up since I was a little kid. I'm going to be an Olympian and I'm going to be this and I'm going to be that. And then all of a sudden it didn't happen. And it's like,

Paul Burgess (00:45:00):

Yeah,

Jake Winder (00:45:01):

What do I do now? This is, this is not the plan. This is not how it was supposed to go. You know? Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:45:08):

It does. It's, it's no different. The, the scale doesn't matter. You know what I mean? As in I talk about this, you can only feel so happy or so sad and everyone gets at the same no matter what. Like, I, when I, you know, when you jump 5 55, is that your

Jake Winder (00:45:23):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:45:25):

That, that exhilaration you felt is is as exhilarating as when Mondo jumps you 21. Right. You know, So you can't get, you can't just get, you know, sort of like 66 centimeters more thrilled out of jumping that much higher. There's a cap on it. And then, and everyone's life matters. You know, everyone's like, to me I jumped six, but all I wanted to do was, why can't I just be like, Steve was jumping better than me at the time, You know? And then people say to me, What's it like to jump six? And I'm like, Probably as frustrating as what whatever you are, whatever you are frustrated, you're not jumping. I was the same.

Jake Winder (00:46:11):

Isn't that hard though. So it's a never ending. It will never, never end

Paul Burgess (00:46:16):

Search for the truth <laugh>.

Jake Winder (00:46:19):

Gosh. But

Paul Burgess (00:46:21):

Don't reckon don't reckon. It's sort of like, and I actually find found coaching has really helped me because I'm back in that cert, never ending search again. And I think I need it. I think that's my drug.

Jake Winder (00:46:34):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:46:35):

Yeah. Cause I am just not, I think, you know, obviously, have you heard that saying you people are losers? I'm not quite sure I wanna go that I don't, I don't I don't I'll ever suffer that condition of contentness, you know, contentment.

Jake Winder (00:46:55):

I I, that that just, I, I mean it's, there's a lot of alcoholisms, there's workaholism, there's alcoholism, and there's a lot of those alcoholisms. And you know, that workaholism is really bad too,

Paul Burgess (00:47:13):

Too. How some of the ones, how some of the ones like say where, where people that their addiction is to sort of punish themselves and make them feel bad. Like say like my one was at least I would go and take drugs, which made me feel good. Right. You know, like, I don't understand the ones that sort of, I'm gonna myself of anything good. I'm like, Yeah. I mean, and that becomes their, their what they crave. But, you know, I, I'm a glu for, I'm a glut in general really. So, you know I I think I was always seeking comfort in, I was trying to seek, I was trying to avoid discomfort.

Jake Winder (00:47:55):

Right,

Paul Burgess (00:47:56):

Right. Yeah. You know, I couldn't handle sitting there and being bored and being sort of like having to think about how my career was over. And probably the best part of my sort of, you know, life was, was probably that was over.

Jake Winder (00:48:13):

Right. I,

Paul Burgess (00:48:15):

I couldn't sit in that.

Jake Winder (00:48:17):

Do you think that some of this was built when you were a kid in gymnastics?

Paul Burgess (00:48:26):

Yeah, maybe. I mean, again, I was so, it was like I was, I was a gymnast and I was super competitive with gymnastics. And I always say I loved, I loved sport as a kid. I'm, I don't know if I love sport or I was, I loved being good at something and it made me relevant somewhere, you know? And I also had trouble, I think, I think I had d ADHD at school and no, it wasn't diagnosed. Cause I, I wa I knew that I wasn't dumb, but I was always kind of like just lost. I remember so many things happening at school and I'd just be like, Why does everyone else know this? And I don't, you know, I, one year we all got given these like folders files at the style of the first day of class. Like great year four. Everyone got given these things and go put 'em up that corner. I went and did it. You know, I was just like sitting there and then just went through the whole year of school. And then the teacher goes, Oh, can everyone just go back and get their folders and hand them in and everyone stands up, walks back to that corner, grabs that file that we put there at the start of the year and brings and hands it in for like, that's the whole year's work. And I was like, When the hell was everyone doing this?

Jake Winder (00:49:39):

Oh my God. <Laugh>. That's terrible. Like

Paul Burgess (00:49:45):

What? I was like, I I you just told us at the back corner at the first day. I've never heard about it since.

Paul Burgess (00:49:53):

Moments like that. And that's not a joke, but like, so then what happened to me is the easiest way to handle that was to be, to make fun of myself and be the funny guy or the clown. And then, but also I could forward to do sport saved me. So it was like, Oh, I'm, I'm good at sport. I don't really have time to worry about school. But really, and I think back now, I think I, I, that was all the protection. I didn't want to, I didn't want to fail at school. I just, that was became, became the easiest way was I, I got, I got sort of positive feedback from being the funny guy or whatever. And then that became easier. Sport was my protector and my backup. And then it just all got, you know, just all sort of, you know, I was never gonna sort of sort of pull it back. I was just in, that was, that was my path at that point. Right. But I still to this day struggle with something. I really take a long time to pick things up. Once I do, I'm good. And say with P Vault, P Vault makes me understand the world because I love Paul Vault. Makes me understand science and physics and, you know like I'll even, like, I can't, I can't grasp to certain topics until I relate it to Paul Vault.

Jake Winder (00:51:20):

Wow.

Paul Burgess (00:51:22):

So yeah, it's sort of funny. And I think that's just, cuz I essentially, you know, gave him a life to Paul Vault and felt, I've delved pretty hard into it and, and had like a bushman's version of all of it. Sort of self taught physics, whatever.

Jake Winder (00:51:37):

Right,

Paul Burgess (00:51:38):

Right. But it all makes sense to me. But it all makes sense to me and I can't yeah. Like I couldn't really, I, I still feel like I don't have anywhere else to apply my knowledge and I would struggle. Because yeah, I still, like, even in meetings at work sometimes I'm just sitting there just hoping no one asks me a question. Cause I dunno what's going on.

Jake Winder (00:52:02):

That's,

Paul Burgess (00:52:02):

I'm just chasing, I'm sitting there just talking in acronyms and stuff and I'm like, like I still don't know any of these things After being there for like eight years. They've been all these, they sound familiar.

Jake Winder (00:52:14):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:52:15):

But I just have to sit there and just try to just sort of nod and, you know, just look agreeable and thoughtful and deep.

Jake Winder (00:52:23):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:52:24):

<Laugh>, hope they don't ask me a question.

Jake Winder (00:52:29):

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's, that's wild.

Paul Burgess (00:52:33):

Yeah. But, but then I think there's some, then just when I get think about pole vault and stuff, that's when I just, I just feel better. I feel like I know what I'm doing. I feel like I can talk and, you know, converse with anyone about Paul Vault and know what I'm talking about. Like, that's the only thing really, you know, everywhere else I feel like I'm like, I'm gonna be exposed here. Mm. But yeah, like, I mean I, I, I'll talk to anyone and, and, and push my views or, or have an argument with anyone. Cause I'm pretty confident that, you know, first of all, I don't think I'm right. I think there's more than one way to do it. I think lots of people are right. But I just feel like that's the one area where that's where I don't feel nervous. That's where I don't feel anxiety.

Jake Winder (00:53:25):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Right. Well that's your thing. That's, that's yeah. That, you know, once you find that thing in your life that, you know, you're like, I am very competent at this. Yeah. I, I've got the opportunity to do this. And then it's like, what, you know, people would call their purpose or whatever, you know, whatever that is. Yeah. But that that, that's how I feel too, is is I, it's comfortable. Is comfortable. It's like put me in it. I can, I can talk and I can, I can understand the

Paul Burgess (00:53:59):

Opposite of home sickness. It's the opposite of home sickness.

Jake Winder (00:54:02):

<Laugh>. Right, right. Yeah. You're at home. You're at home. Yeah. You know, that feels good.

Paul Burgess (00:54:06):

But I tried a couple of jobs and stuff after and I had some, a couple of times where I just turned around and walked out and just never went back before I even got there. I was just like, I dunno how I even go. And like, you know, it was like, I don't know, I would just, I was just, yeah. I don't know. I just sort of thought how before I got there I'd be thinking how longs it gonna be to like, just do that colossal, It's like just the shame of the whole place. You know? Like it's, Yeah.

Jake Winder (00:54:48):

It's a good thing that you're where you're at now, right? Cause you're doing something. You're doing something now. So is that your fulltime like employment? Yeah. That Okay.

Paul Burgess (00:54:57):

Thank God.

Jake Winder (00:54:58):

That's awesome. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (00:54:59):

Right. Otherwise I'd just be licking stamps somewhere. I think <laugh>

Jake Winder (00:55:05):

Maybe. That wouldn't be a good job. Geez.

Paul Burgess (00:55:09):

No, no. I wouldn't be content. I wouldn't be content.

Jake Winder (00:55:12):

Right, right. So for those people who don't know, you grew up as like a competitive gymnast. So this, this competitiveness kinda started early. When did you get into gymnastics? Cause you weren't just like a run in the mill gymnast. You were elite level gymnast, right?

Paul Burgess (00:55:31):

Yeah. It's funny now, like talking about it. Cause I've obviously I've probably, I think I've put on a little few kilos I think since, since I was an athlete. But like, to me, I think looking at me, I'm the first of all, people don't believe I was a pole to start with. They're like, you got a shop put up. But second of all, then when I say I was an elite gymnast, like they're like, I don't think, I don't exactly look like I'd be, you know, twinkle toes <laugh>. But yeah, I was really competitive with gymnastics. And again, I, but see, I, I was, there was, that was my identity. And I remember, you know, when I really came to terms with it, I was gonna be too tall and that sort of, then I wanted to get out of it, but just feeling like, oh God, what am I gonna be now?

Paul Burgess (00:56:17):

Because you know, I was, I was an elite sort of second, second in Australia for the all around gymnastics sort of thing for like under 14. And but do you know, that was a little different to Paul Vault because yeah, like I, I still, I stopped because I was probably gonna be too tall and it wasn't gonna work out. But even when I was doing well, I ha like you, I don't know, I don't know how you could possibly enjoy being a gymnast and the training you have to do, it's like 30 hours a week on top of school. I just remember I used to get to, you know, get to finish. Like you, you go to score six 30 in the morning, you go to training till eight 30, get on a bus to school to school, and then you'd have to go back and wait for the bus.

Paul Burgess (00:57:09):

And I remember that when you get sent to from school a bit early, like half an hour early to go catch the gymnastics bus, I'd be sitting there and I just wanna cry, just going, Oh my God, I've got four hours of training now, and then I've gotta go home, go to sleep, and wake up and do it again. You know, it was just so, I mean, there's something which I think though made me have like a work ethic as far as training. Cause when I went to P Vault, I just thought, this is the easiest training I've ever done. It's the best ever.

Jake Winder (00:57:43):

Right.

Paul Burgess (00:57:43):

Not, not that I wa but don't worry. That stopped soon when I did my first six times one 50 session.

Jake Winder (00:57:49):

Right, right, right.

Paul Burgess (00:57:51):

Yeah. I'm not good on speed insurance. Not big on that.

Jake Winder (00:57:55):

Yeah. I'm not a big, I don't know. I've been having, you know what, to be honest with you, and this might get too tight. I

Paul Burgess (00:58:00):

Don't do it anymore.

Jake Winder (00:58:01):

Well, yeah. I've been getting, this might get too technical, and this is just an idea I've been thinking about a lot. Yes. And I don't know what you guys do like during the off season or whatever, but there's something that I've been bothered with lately

Paul Burgess (00:58:16):

Mm-Hmm.

Jake Winder (00:58:17):

<Affirmative>. And it's, there's this thing that a lot of pole vaulters do and athletes do in the off season, let's just say pole vault zone, is they run these really long speed endurance workouts. Okay. Yeah. So you, let's say you do that, like in America, our, our off season is right now. So you were doing it in the fall. And then, so let's say you run 300 meter intervals. Okay. And then you are vaulting in May. So, and, but you stopped doing the three hundreds. So like, do you think that the 300 meter sprint endurance that you had in October is still with you? <Laugh>, you know, in May. I, I'm, I'm having a hard time understanding. So why are we do it? So

Paul Burgess (00:59:06):

I did all that stuff as well when I was an athlete. I do none of it now. Like I don't, I, but this is, I'm essentially just, it's like, to me, it's almost like when you find out Santa Claus isn't real

Jake Winder (00:59:18):

<Laugh>. That's exactly, that's a great analogy.

Paul Burgess (00:59:22):

It, it's like, to me, I'm like, cause I started thinking about it and I'm like, so these three hundreds are the hardest things we do. Right? They're just like, I'll be throwing up and people will be throwing up. But also I'm not going that fast.

Jake Winder (00:59:34):

Right? Right.

Paul Burgess (00:59:34):

It's not, it's not even speed insurance. Like, I'm not getting, I'm not running, I'm running, I'm running like 50 seconds for a 300. Not, it's not. But I coach used to say, this is our training. You know, you go from there, you gradually get, you know, bring it down to two then 50 and this and that. As you get the season started thinking this is not making this faster. I'm like, so there might be a purpose if you wanna, So that's, that's the hard thing to sell. It's like, so if you wanna tell people that this is to say do some cardio and drop some weight or something, that's fine. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But don't try to tell me this is getting me faster.

Jake Winder (01:00:16):

No, it's a whole different, That's in everything's,

Paul Burgess (01:00:19):

That's one of the things I talk about is running the speed outta people.

Jake Winder (01:00:23):

That's okay. Good. I'm glad we're on the same page. Cuz I was thinking that I was crazy because I was like, this has been done for a, this is like the age old way that you train as you start with the 300 s in the fall or whatever, and then you taper down, you know? Well,

Paul Burgess (01:00:38):

I also think to me it's not, you don't even run with good form,

Jake Winder (01:00:43):

Right? It's a difference. Right.

Paul Burgess (01:00:45):

You're not running like a sprinter. You're not running like a, So to me, I just at some point just started thinking, I only run, it's, I run as they run as far as they can running, like, they would run on the runway. Right? If they're, if they're going. So like, and to me, probably it's about only, it's only like I'm with Curtis. I probably go max, like, even like eighties, one twenties maybe not

Jake Winder (01:01:14):

Even. I know I always say like a hundred meters is is about where I go

Paul Burgess (01:01:19):

Doing one twenties, the last 30 meters he's starting to fall out the back and stuff. I'm like, well, what actually, I'd rather stop him where he is and keep him. Just do reps, move reps at that, that good quality than than let him just sort of fall out the back and, and fail. You know? To me, I don't know. But, but, but I also yeah. So to me, I just basically want them to either every contact, every drill they do and they warm up. I just don't want tog I just say either every drill you do has to be a fast contact, like a sharp contact. Even a walking drill is kind of like they'll do at walking a drill and they'll hit the ground hard. I don't want them to be sloppy on the ground. So Nina's like that, Nina can't jog <laugh>. She, she's such a Mong girl. She, you know, that's the hard thing is she sort of is getting her to calm down and it's so violent with how she does things. She's so violent on the ground when she does drills and stuff, which is great. But

Jake Winder (01:02:26):

Yeah. That's awesome.

Paul Burgess (01:02:29):

But yeah, I sort of yeah, I just sort of, I'm done with all that. I'm like, I just feel, feel like I, maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't had anyone, and maybe I'm just too stupid to understand, but I haven't ever had anyone give me a convincing argument.

Jake Winder (01:02:43):

I

Paul Burgess (01:02:44):

Know as to why, you know, it's all like, they're all just, you know, random words. People just start spitting words back at me that don't mean anything. And it sounds to me like they don't know what they're talking about and they're just trying to come up with something.

Jake Winder (01:02:59):

I think you, you nailed it. You nailed it. The only, the only like,

Paul Burgess (01:03:05):

Explanation,

Jake Winder (01:03:06):

Purpose, the only explanation that I can think of is you come to training camp 15 pounds overweight. Yeah. You know, or, or something like that. And it's like, oh man, well we've gotta dig you out of this hole. But if you come in like five pounds outta overweight or, or whatever, like, and you are maybe a little bit outta shape. I, I really don't see that cuz I, I don't see how we're going to, how those are gonna affect how you're pole vaulting at the world championships in August or July, you know? Well,

Paul Burgess (01:03:35):

The worst thing is when it's presented you to you as this is training to get you faster and you just go and you kind of like, and then you, you know, when you, I catch my and coach, if I can't explain it, then I'm not gonna make him do it.

Jake Winder (01:03:51):

Mm.

Paul Burgess (01:03:51):

You know, because you know, I hated that when you'd sort of say, Why are we doing this? And they'd go, just trust me. You, you, you know, you need to just, so your, your job to worry about that. It's <laugh> it's my job. And I'm like, that sounds like something I'd say I was just bullshitting <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:04:08):

Right, Right. Or, Well, I mean, to be honest with you, I think what it is is if you ask somebody that question, you say, Hey, why do we run three hundreds in the fall? And they really thought about it, they'd be like, Well, that's just what I did. That's what I did. I was was a kid, you know, <laugh>, but

Paul Burgess (01:04:24):

Dog, dog dogmas a funny thing, Huh? Because it's like, imagine believing something your whole life and then having to admit that that whole time you are doing it for no reason. That'd be hard to come to terms with. So Yeah.

Jake Winder (01:04:37):

Gotta lose the ego on that one. You,

Paul Burgess (01:04:39):

Well you gotta just go like that's, you don't want think that that was the case. Like he's thinking that I did, I went through a lot of pain. Right. I don't want that to have been for nothing <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:04:49):

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I, I don't know. So that, that was just a,

Paul Burgess (01:04:54):

But I, it's getting more like that though. I think I think more and more people are going down the path talking about, I think that that's getting, it is sort of slowly becoming like an old fashioned way of training.

Jake Winder (01:05:08):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:05:09):

And I still think there's a huge amount of people that do it. But tell you, like to me, most of the guys I talk to, the coaches that are coaching, you know, on at, that I'm dealing with at the moment most of them are on the same page as you and me.

Jake Winder (01:05:25):

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean there, there are people out there that do it and if it, I mean a good example you know, I'd love Sam Kendricks and really awesome dude. But we always ask a question at the end of this podcast you know, the top three exercises that you would do if you could only do those exercises for the rest of your life. One of his was 400, 400 repeats that dude, 400 repeats

Paul Burgess (01:05:52):

The thing you say, Sam Kendricks, he has just, to me it's like he's made a, where we'll work better than a normal wheel for somehow.

Jake Winder (01:06:04):

I know.

Paul Burgess (01:06:06):

It's like, I don't, I don't, he just seems like I've never someone that's, it's amazing by the way, but someone that jumps five 80 so easily so often in training and then just to me have such a, a sort of different, different style. And the way he jumps within comps is phenomenal. The way he, he'll blow through and not go up, He'll bring his grip narrower in the, you know, and all these weird things, which is again, just open my eyes to different options. Right. So that's a great thing. But, but to me, some people break the rules. And I think, I think sometimes it's people that just, you know, say I think Sam has the speed he's got.

Jake Winder (01:06:55):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

Paul Burgess (01:06:55):

Sometimes it's like he can train however he wants, as long as he vaults twice a week, he'll jump five eighties fives.

Jake Winder (01:07:01):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:07:02):

Yeah. And I reckon, say me, I really had to be, I had to get my training right to jump well and if I lost strength and stuff, I would lose power pretty quick. Whereas someone like Steve, I feel like he had strength and speed reserves that again, he could, he could sort of miss big count training and still just like, so I don't know. He, he, I think he was telling the story about when he jumped 6 0 1 in New York and, and six, nearly six 14. This was, that was Soul Crush. That was not soul crushing. It was amazing. 96, 16. Sorry. But you know, he, I'd been with him, he had barely trained since the Olympics. Like that was start of 2009 and he couldn't jump, his knee was stuffed and I thought he was just going there for the money. Right. And he gets there and two days before he's, he's gone. I can't see myself being able to, I'm gonna have to pull out his knees that, and he just hadn't jumped for six weeks or something and comes and just bombs 6 0 1. Right. And then just has the best attempts at world record that I've ever seen. Like so good. And I just thought, what I, that doesn't even, like,

Jake Winder (01:08:24):

He's just got it. That doesn't got it. You know? Yeah. And that's like for Sam, I don't want it to be misconstrued because I think that at the end of the day, it's gotta be, I know whatever works for you. You know, And he, he believes in what works for him and, and he, you know, he's got it down and he could probably take a hundred jumps in a, in a competition. He's, he's in really good condition.

Paul Burgess (01:08:47):

Well I think he's, that's one of the things this, he's trained and he's in great shape. So he's in great physical shape. So that's it. I think he's what, what, where the probably important bit is lies in vault sessions for him. The rest of it is he could probably train at a bunch of different ways and as long as he stayed in shape, still be fine. Yeah. Sometimes it's, sometimes I think there's, there's less. It's like you can, you really not having that as big an impact as you might think you are

Jake Winder (01:09:24):

<Laugh>. Right. Right.

Paul Burgess (01:09:26):

You know, like you, people can do it all sorts of different ways and you might think, Oh, I did this this year and it really worked. How do you know it was that, you know, <laugh>?

Jake Winder (01:09:37):

That's a good question. That's a good question. I think that a coach I think a coach more than anything is the guardian of an athlete's mind. I think that, that that's what they, that's the biggest impact, you know, is managing their mind and managing their stuff. Yeah. Right.

Paul Burgess (01:09:58):

Try not to get them injured. Cause athletes aren't good judges of themselves. They won't make good decisions

Jake Winder (01:10:04):

100%.

Paul Burgess (01:10:04):

You know? So you need to be there to try and do that. And essentially, you know, technical, I think technical is the bare minimum as a coach.

Jake Winder (01:10:13):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:10:13):

But then I really think it's, it's low. There's, there's plenty of different ways to do it. But if you can get the loads balanced Right. You know, you, you, you're most of the way there with, with physical stuff. But then, you know, again, you've gotta find a way to unlock their confidence in themselves as well. As you say, the Steve thing was amazing because he was, I I still think even when he was running through, he's, he's got one of the strongest minds ever. As in he could ruin him, his mind could ruin him, or it could, it could win him Olympic gold medal depends on player was

Jake Winder (01:10:56):

Working. Yeah. He was very polarized it seemed like, because he said he went through that like three year stint when he was younger of running through. So that's like one end of the spectrum. Like he's, he's completely just torn up. And then on the other side of the spectrum, he can have a torn adductor and then Yeah. And come in at 85 or whatever he did and win the world championships, you

Paul Burgess (01:11:21):

Know, But he couldn't, for a while. He couldn't take off off like one step or two steps, you know? That's crazy. I, I've never, So that's insanity. Yeah. Isn't it? So to me that was crazy. But then also just this, you know, I know that, that I was there when he nearly, he had that good crack at world record. And then, you know, I remember him going down that path thinking the poll would be in the right, torn on the box. And I know he still, I I I still with him about this I call. I think that has no, I'm like, I don't, I just think, do you know what would've got in the world record if he had just kept doing what he was doing? And he had a, a bit of luck goes way.

Jake Winder (01:12:06):

I Yeah. I, I I think so too. I I think he would agree with that too. Have you talked I, I forget about on our podcast. Think

Paul Burgess (01:12:14):

He's, he's, he says, I don't think anyone concentrates on it, but he said, I still think he's, that if you plant the right side, it opens up the, allows the pole to bend more. Alright. And I've checked everyone who plants the pole ends up in the same place.

Jake Winder (01:12:33):

Right. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's an interesting, whenever he brought that up on our podcast, I was like, Yeah, that is

Paul Burgess (01:12:41):

Interesting. I wanted to, I wanted to, I wanted to I wanted to call in <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:12:48):

That's what we gotta do. We gotta get a phone number. Gotta get a phone number to call in. So you, you've been talking about balancing the load of training your athletes. So whenever you're writing workouts for Nina and Kurt, are, are those different workouts or they somewhat same. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:13:12):

Yeah. Generally different. Because they've probably got different, Yeah. Different. They've gotta work on a lot. Generally the week, the structure of the week will be fairly similar. Their t days will be the same and their gym days will be the same and stuff like that. But Nina, I actually do probably a lot less than you might think with training. I, I really just, and I, I've cut it. I also have stopped. One thing I've stopped doing is fluff in sessions. You know, there's, you can spend hours doing stuff that doesn't, I'm just like, I don't think this, Do you really think doing anything except making you tired?

Jake Winder (01:13:56):

So, so that's so funny. That's exactly the podcast I just did with my brother. Yeah. That was exactly what we did this year. That's what we did this year was I said, All this other stuff is BS man. Like this is, this is, all this is doing is wasting energy. And we call them, we call 'em needle movers. Is it gonna move the needle? Cause if it's not gonna move the needle, get it outta here. We don't want it. Well,

Paul Burgess (01:14:21):

It's funny cause people are like, you gotta do, it's all about the 1%. You guys are completely lost where you are because all the one percenters are ridiculous if you don't get a return on them.

Jake Winder (01:14:34):

Yeah. Right. <Laugh>. Right, Exactly.

Paul Burgess (01:14:39):

Like, like you're doing, you're doing like as well. Like, just say someone like Nina, I've just like, she, we do gymnastics and stuff, and I've just, she comes and she's, those stuff we do is so beneath her. I just, in the end, I just said, you know, you don't need to come.

Jake Winder (01:14:55):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:14:55):

Like you, it's your gymnastic level is so far enough.

Jake Winder (01:15:02):

Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's crazy. I, I'm reading this book. There's, I actually, I wanted to hop back really quick. So you, you were talking about Steve and how he had that huge break Right. And then came and jumped really well in the States. Is that That's correct. That's correct. Right? Yep. Okay.

Paul Burgess (01:15:20):

And a series of comps that were amazing. Yeah,

Jake Winder (01:15:22):

Yeah. Yeah. I remember the run. It was, it was really crazy. So I'm reading this book called Body by Science by Doug McGuff. I don't know if you ever read it. It's a really interesting book. You, you and I

Paul Burgess (01:15:36):

Tell me some books. Give me some books, three recommendations.

Jake Winder (01:15:38):

Actually I will, I will. I'll send this one over. It's interesting. I don't know if it directly applies to Elite Pole Vaults, but anyway, so there's a, somehow there's a statistic in there that says, I don't know, I forget what the per statistic is, but it's a high percentage of world records that have been set in the sprints have come off of, directly off of an injured athlete layoff.

Paul Burgess (01:16:08):

Fresh.

Jake Winder (01:16:09):

Isn't that crazy?

Paul Burgess (01:16:11):

Well, yeah. That's, that is, that is crazy. Yeah.

Jake Winder (01:16:15):

Like, I think it's 80

Paul Burgess (01:16:17):

Percent's probably not that crazy, you know, But it's, it's probably, Well, you know, I think, yeah, sometimes we train because we think we should train. It's like, I have just tried to stop doing that. I'm just like, Well, Emma, what, why do we have to train twice a day? So like, I've gone, I don't want 'em to do twice a day. I want, we'll train, we'll do all of every training we that we need to do for the day in the morning. And then, then they can have the whole day to themselves. Yeah. And then also, like, to me that helps mental mentally, like they can also organize, organize their lives better. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they don't get as sick of training, but, you know and yeah. Training's not such a burden. It's, it's like, it's not burden on, it's not costing them that much.

Paul Burgess (01:17:04):

But also, I just think, I remember used to do double sessions. I used to go to training in the morning, come back for that second session and felt like it's so hard to warm up again mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And you've also gotta spend another hour warming up. Right. But yeah, I just, I just am now getting as, yeah. Just coming in blitz sort of like attack on the training you need to do and just know more. And and it's been working generally. I mean, you just, I used to train so much more and harder and I think it was almost just the harder you train, the better you are. And like, or it was like a, it was like a contest almost.

Jake Winder (01:17:48):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:17:48):

So just, yeah.

Jake Winder (01:17:50):

Don't you wish you would've known all this whenever you were a vault?

Paul Burgess (01:17:54):

Yeah. I always, I think it's funny though because yeah. It's like, I'd say I knew all this. I probably would've jumped at least seven, eight meters. That's the day. You know? Cause I think I, I think now back when I think I've known so much more now, I also think things for a period of time must have come together so perfectly for me. You know, to, to kind of, it all just came together for a while. So, and I dunno what it was exactly. It was everything.

Jake Winder (01:18:28):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:18:30):

Right. You know, as you can, it's not one thing that, that you changed. It's everything's coming, everything's firing on all cylinders. So to jump six meters. And at the time it felt easy and I thought, Oh, I'll just do that every time now.

Jake Winder (01:18:47):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:18:48):

You know? Cause when it took so much going Right. For that to feel easy.

Jake Winder (01:18:54):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:18:55):

But yeah, so I'm, I, I think I, I'm reluctant to say that if I knew what I knew now, that I might have gone better. Because I feel like I had, I, there's a lot of guys I felt like were physically more talented than me. That didn't jump six,

Jake Winder (01:19:14):

That's 150. So I feel like I'm, there's a lot of really good pole vaults out there that did not jump six meters. So let's go to that 2005 season mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So kind of take us through that and how that all shook out.

Paul Burgess (01:19:33):

Okay. So I reckon it started in two four and in the lead up to basically in Europe, in the last fews in the lead to Olympics, I had met Tim in and we'd hit like crazy and hadn't seen him since. But then we just bumped into each other. We were in Stockholm and before Olympics, and we were jumping and traveling together. And Tim and Tim is one of the, like the funniest guy. I thought he should be a comedian when he, you know, he is so funny. He's just like a, he was just, I felt like he was just like me as well. Like, like always imposter syndrome going like, What, how come like, what are all these guys doing? What are we supposed to be doing? You know, like, we were like, Why does everyone seem to know what they're doing?

Paul Burgess (01:20:19):

<Laugh>? And he was just this goofy dude who, him and I would just sit there just trying to make each other laugh. And then he started dominating. Yeah. And I was like rooming with him all the time. And then he won, you know, that Olympics when he won was incredible. And I was just there with him all the time. And we hung out and then we did the comps after the Olympics. And I just thought he just, he just made me think, and this is not to discredit his talent or anything, I just thought it's not so much about that. It's more so he's just a guy like me. If he can do it, why can't I, Because we used to look at Terra and all that. They were like, we can't be like them. You know, was so sort of off. We weren't really, we didn't talked to book or anything.

Paul Burgess (01:21:08):

Right. You couldn't talk it like you were, we were so separated. Right. But yeah, to me, I just really it was inspired by that. And he was so, he was just so confidence building to me as well. Just gone, Dude, you know, you're gonna jump. I've been waiting for you to jump high, sort of thing. But then I came back and I just decided, Okay, I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna really, I'm gonna stop drinking. I'm gonna, you know, get my act together. I'm gonna really, I really want to go up a level. Right. And I thought I might have to change a few things. And it might be, that doesn't happen next year. It might be the year after or so. So it was like, I just let go of needing to jump high now. And I just was training. It felt normal.

Paul Burgess (01:21:52):

I knew I was sort of in good shape and it just all of a sudden just started jumping really well in training, but still didn't know what that meant. Off short runs. And doing some takeoff. And I kept doing run up, just run up on the side. And I, like, I kept having to move my run up back and I felt like I was like jogging and I've move, had to move back like two meters for the normal. And then did like, say my first take off on the same pole I would normally do my first take off on. And it felt like I'd taken the wrong pole. I thought I, like, I must have taken like a four 60 pole or something. Right. You know, just like slow through. But I felt the same. Right. but then anyway, so I just, I just really, I was a lot leaner, sharper and, you know, pretty focused.

Paul Burgess (01:22:40):

And then I had one session, five 80 was my lifetime goal. That was all I wanted to do was jump five 80. Right. I jumped 5 77 at this point, and I did a session where I was just, I jumped 70 I think in training, which was already a pbe for training. And I kept going up poles and I talked to this pole 12.0 and I was trying to jump and the trying to jump it. And I did like three or four sort of half goes. And then I just finally went bang and cleared the bar and Alex had put it at five 80. I didn't, and, and I just pumped it. And so that day, I still remember that day is I feel like the day that things changed for me, you know, so Wow. So not like first or second pump. I think my people was 77 and I jumped 90, I jumped 81 and 90 on the same.

Jake Winder (01:23:28):

Oh my.

Paul Burgess (01:23:30):

And then like, I jumped and weeks later I jumped six before I even had a chance. Think I'd never put myself in that, I'd never let myself think what would it like to jump six because just, it, it just was so far away. It was Right. Science fiction, it was trick photography for me, <laugh>. But then it just kind of like, I think I was so hung up on five 80 that I got five 90 on the same day. Didn't even

Jake Winder (01:24:02):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:24:02):

Have to have to have a chance to think about 90. And that, that's, that's one of those points. And you know, I feel like for a period of 2005, 2006, where I did have that confidence where I just, I think most of the time I was like, you know, waiting for, waiting to be exposed or waiting for things to come crumbling down. But I remember in 2005 and 2006, just for that period of time, I thought I can, it doesn't matter what people jump, I'll jump that plus a bit more. I'll just jump whatever. Like I, I knew I could jump whatever. What it took, you know, is that that's how it felt. Maybe 2005, I felt like that. And then I got injured before World Champ, which is fine. But two six, that year was great. It was, it wasn't so much that I knew I could jump high. I knew that was where Steve, Brad, and myself knew that it was just, well, we're gonna come top three, which order it gonna be.

Jake Winder (01:25:04):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:25:05):

And that was great. We had a, an, it was such an amazing season, you know, so like I won round Steve got second, you know Brad won Zurich, Steve and I came equal second. Wow. Steve won Berlin five or second, you know. And then I won the World Athletics final. And it was like, just like, it was just, it was just so, and we were also just having a ball. We were all hanging out and driving across, driving across the continent and, you know, singing songs at the top of our lungs and, you know, Yeah. It was just, it was just a really, really fun time. But yeah, that, that was, that was, I really feel like, say the difference between say me and the, and the greats is probably longevity, you know,

Jake Winder (01:25:52):

Iies or,

Paul Burgess (01:25:55):

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, you know what, I think I had avoidable injuries. I remember, and this is, this is too with probably Steve, and you can see the difference in the lead up to Olympics. We both had some little niggles coming down to Olympics. I would be training with Steve and see the numbers he was doing, you know, and that just drove, like, that would just crush me. Like, you know, he was so fast. Like, so I'd do the craziest running session in my life and times, and then Steve would come and do it just straight after me and the time. And I was just like, What am I doing? Yeah. You know? So then I remember my achilles starting to feel sore and go, people going, Oh, you should take some time off. And I was going, Well, no, that's not an option. Cause Steve's not taking the week off, so I can't take that bus.

Jake Winder (01:26:43):

All right.

Paul Burgess (01:26:44):

You know, so, and it was, it's, it's, it's ridiculous, but you not of sound mind when you're in that stage. Yeah. But anyway, so then even then Steve did the opposite. He got a pretty serious back injury for a while. And he was like, he went back to, I don't remember looking at him in the weight room. He was doing like deadlifts with like a stick.

Jake Winder (01:27:08):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:27:08):

And we were like, training towards Olympics. And I'm like, How can you be seriously thinking this is worth doing anything? Like if someone told me to lift with a stick that Olympics, I'll be like, Okay, is over. Go sit by the window. <Laugh>. Like, but he just, he just went patient. And so he did that. But then like, so that was a few, you know, maybe two, two and a half months out from Olympics. But cause he did the right thing, he progressed so quick. And that's the same sort of thing I talk about with 2005 for me is I had planned on almost sacrificing that year by going back and doing it slow. But sometimes you gotta slow down to speed up.

Jake Winder (01:27:57):

Yeah. Isn't that the hardest thing though, is whenever you start to feel that twinge and then you realize that it's actually something legitimate, like a legitimate injury. And then you just, that's the hardest thing is you

Paul Burgess (01:28:10):

Refuse I'm accepting

Jake Winder (01:28:11):

It. But you have to start over. You gotta start over you. Then the sooner you can realize that. Yeah. Then the sooner you can start healing, you know?

Paul Burgess (01:28:20):

And I mean, look, I, I think when I'm, I'm, no one can catastrophize like me. I'll put that up against anybody, you know? But yeah, like, so to me, I'm just automatically going from my Achilles is a bit sore to, well, if I let this happen, then I'm not gonna do well at the Olympics. And then my sponsors will drop me and then I'll why to drop me and everyone will hate me. And then I'll be homeless and I'll be living on the streets. You know, somehow I'd get like way couldn't, Let's see how this pans out and see how it feels tomorrow.

Jake Winder (01:29:01):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:29:02):

I was, Yeah. You just

Jake Winder (01:29:03):

Start

Paul Burgess (01:29:03):

Spiraling. I was just, I was just curling the ball with my sucking my thumb. You

Jake Winder (01:29:09):

Know, That's the worst feeling is whenever that head starts to just turn,

Paul Burgess (01:29:14):

You know, when you know it spiral and you, Oh no, I've done it. I've gone, There's going back now in for a penny in for a pound, <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:29:23):

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And then it starts going and then it, you just can't stop it. It's hard to reel that thing back in.

Paul Burgess (01:29:31):

Well, as a coach though, so to me, what I've had to do, so, cause that, that's hard too. So I've just, and I thought, you know, this, I, I can't do that to the athletes. I can't be curled in a ball when I'm stressed about if, if they see me like that, how are they gonna be? Whatever. But so, you know, I have a theory now, and this is how I was for those two years. Somehow had two years where it's like my brain took a break on me for a while and didn't, just didn't, I just stopped trying to ruin myself for those two years. But it was like I, those moments where it was you going to catastrophize, I remember getting it and just nipping it in the bud, almost like out loud. Just like I could feel it going like that. And I'd start just panic and I'll go, No, not gonna do it. Not gonna do it.

Jake Winder (01:30:24):

Right. Right.

Paul Burgess (01:30:26):

And I just, it was that much of a choice. And that's what I do now.

Jake Winder (01:30:30):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:30:30):

As a coach, the problem is the, for me anyway, and this is cause I'm probably mentally ill, is that I want go down that other path. Cause I wanna, I want to wallow in that that feeling. That's the, that's what initially feels good.

Jake Winder (01:30:53):

Yeah. It's very weird, isn't it, that that does, in that moment it feels good,

Paul Burgess (01:30:59):

But it doesn't, but it doesn't feel good for long.

Jake Winder (01:31:03):

No. Cause then you start tanking.

Paul Burgess (01:31:06):

So Yeah. To me, if I'm able to just go, not, not gonna do that, usually even like a minute or so later, I think I can now think to myself, God, you know, had I just gone that different direction, I can't believe that I was almost gonna like ruin my whole week.

Jake Winder (01:31:23):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:31:24):

You know, when like two minutes later I've already come back to reality and realize it's nowhere near that bad.

Jake Winder (01:31:30):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:31:32):

Just by making that choice early. But it's, I I mean it's just such an, it's like, it's like saying make the best, make the smartest choice when you're in the worst sort of like most stressful state. So it's hard to say to people. It's hard to do. But you know, I do think for me being a coach and having others, like it's easier when someone else's careers on the line is that I'm, I'm more willing to sabotage my own career than I am someone else's. So I, I'm able to kind of just hold myself together, you know? Right.

Jake Winder (01:32:12):

Cause you know where that leads, you know where that's gonna go if you let it, if you let it. Well,

Paul Burgess (01:32:18):

Well, yeah. There's something about like the, the self sabotage is one thing, but, you know, sabotaging others is that seems that seems like you're allowed to be cruel to yourself, but you shouldn't be. But you know, you sort of, you can but yeah. To be sort of cruel and you know, you're gonna, That's not, that's not gonna, you're not gonna be feeling good if you, if you let that, you're gonna live with that. Yeah. And just go, Cause that's, that's, that's passive. That's fuckery to you, you're messing with them.

Jake Winder (01:32:54):

Right, Right. Yeah, absolutely. I, I I use a meditation app every day. It's Sam here, I don't know if you know the name Sam Harris, but Yeah,

Paul Burgess (01:33:05):

Dude

Jake Winder (01:33:06):

Is, yeah. So Sam, Sam Harris is waking up meditation app. I use that every day. And, and, and he just talks about how, you know, you, you learn how to, you know, see the thought and, and recognize the thought. And then, and then it teaches you how quickly it, it can just disappear. That thought. The hormone,

Paul Burgess (01:33:26):

The hormone effect, The hormone effect is actually only a 32nd thing. Yeah. Know, it's like, and you like recognize where is it? Is it in my tummy that I feel it and just listen to it, Let it feel and then let it dissipate. Yeah. That's what I, I refer to that all the time. But I was gonna say, I, similar to you, I plan on meditating to Sam Harris every day.

Jake Winder (01:33:48):

Yeah. You actually,

Paul Burgess (01:33:52):

I gotta get, I do, I do get into it. And he's, he's the guy that sort of, hes, when he explains things that really does with me

Jake Winder (01:34:01):

Yeah. In that sort, it's really, really, anyway,

Paul Burgess (01:34:03):

The you know, he talked about one thing where he is like, you know, you kind of just, this is one thing I had where something went wrong at work and my initial thought, I was just like, I'm gonna go to the pub and, you know, and like I was just like wanting to be reckless or something, you know. And then I somehow, there's some something Sam Harris sort of talked about. But I was like, Okay, like what could happen is like, I might think, Oh, I didn't get the pay rise or something at work and that's just devastating. But then if I went to the pub, had a couple of drinks, drove and knocked someone off their bike or something got pulled over by the police, blew over the limit, how much should we thinking? I wish I could just go back to just not getting a promotion.

Jake Winder (01:34:48):

Exactly. That's a good way of looking in.

Paul Burgess (01:34:51):

How good would that be? You know, you think how good, how, how lucky would you feel? Right. Sometimes when, when you know, you, if you, if you manage things, I often with, you know, particularly my family sometimes, like my, like my parents and stuff, when they wanna try and tell me things will be okay. And I'm like, you know, I wanna, I'm like, How do you know? And I'll sort of argue back and this and that. And then they'll say something. And it's, it's not till I say something too mean that I just go, What? How addict, It's not even a problem. It's like, I need to make, I need to do something that's just, just gonna embarrass me.

Jake Winder (01:35:30):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:35:31):

You need that embarrassment to realize how petty you're being.

Jake Winder (01:35:35):

It's really, really wild. And I think the moral of that story is just to when, if you're a pole vaulter and those, you know, those thoughts or a coach and those thoughts come in, like they literally can dissipate if you just give it a little bit of time, it's not even a lot of time. And you, you were saying like 30 seconds or a minute. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's gone. And then you avoid that whole thing.

Paul Burgess (01:35:59):

Well, you see guys who can do it and who can't. You can see the difference in, in some of those guys, I still see guys that I can see them snowballing, you know? And I'm like, Oh no, they that now they're stuffed. See other people. And I would give this Kurt Curtis. So I coach, he, he's, he's amazing at separating himself from something like that. Like he can sort of just switch off, switch over here and just compartmentalize it and just move on. Cause he's like, he's funny. He says really weird things that, I dunno whether that's healthy or not. But he's talking about one of our guys, he stopped jumping Angus Armstrong. And he, and he said, Kurt, like my heart's just not it. And Kurt, he Angus me and said, his heart's not in it don't seemed, you know, there. And those fur characters was, that was really like a symbol of the, the two of them as well. Cause yeah, Kurt, he's just sort of pretty straightforward. He just doesn't wanna think too heavily about that sort of stuff.

Jake Winder (01:37:13):

Right.

Paul Burgess (01:37:15):

But yeah, it's, it's just funny how you see some people, and this is Mondo. I mean it's, I guess it's easy when you're that good, but to have confidence and to have calmness. But you know, you watch him compete and this is what I've been watching, you know, he does nothing. He just get, he does his warm, he goes and sits down. He doesn't even seem to do a warm up run through or something before his Jo. He just sits down, wakes sls his turn, takes his tracksuit off, walks up, picks up his pole and jumps. And I'm like, that is a clinic in low anxiety.

Jake Winder (01:37:53):

I know. It's, it's a beautiful thing to watch. That was the one thing I saw. I watched him jump 6 21 at the World Championships. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that I took away from that world championships with Mondo was his warmup in the prelim. It was literally, he just he just like grabbed his five 20 stick head back, the end of the runway, hit it just like flopped over the bar, wasn't even a good jump. And then just threw it back in the bag. And then that was it. Yeah. I was like, he's not gonna take anymore.

Paul Burgess (01:38:28):

How beautiful. Watching some of his low bars,

Jake Winder (01:38:33):

Like,

Paul Burgess (01:38:34):

You know, like watching some, like that's to me some of the best stuff to watch. Like watching him just, or something. It's so funny. Something like that. It's like, him, you are ruining my legacy dude. You know, like, he can't be six, six meters like, you know, all casual, you know, just like letting your arms like kinda relax over the bar and stuff. You know?

Jake Winder (01:39:06):

I think he said, I think I think, I don't know who put it up, Was it world Athletics or something?

Paul Burgess (01:39:14):

They put

Jake Winder (01:39:14):

Up like 22, 22 times this year over over six years. Over

Paul Burgess (01:39:20):

Six. But that was the other thing. Watch does some of the, the, the world records are awesome and 6 21 to me was the best one. Like, you know, that was the most, But just say like watching the six, the six meter progression hikes on all those comps is just, to me, I just can't, it just can't be real.

Jake Winder (01:39:47):

Mm. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:39:48):

It's just so, it's poetry,

Jake Winder (01:39:53):

It's amazing. It's somebody, it's the best that is ever lived by a long, by a long shot. I think

Paul Burgess (01:40:00):

It's changed. It's changed Paul Vault because you know what, Paul Vault's still happening normally underneath Mundo. Right, right. But Chris Nielsen, let's not, let's not make no mistake. Chris Nielsen is one of the great Paul Vaults of all time. You know, he's an amazing halter. But like, say under Mondo, it's sort of normal. As in what, when could you ever really predict that one person's gonna, how could you be ever be that sure that one person's gonna win pole vault? It's like golf. You know, when Tiger was at his best, he still wasn't winning every tournament.

Jake Winder (01:40:39):

No.

Paul Burgess (01:40:39):

But like, and that's how I sort of, maybe Paul's not quite like that, but, but it's a bit like that. Like, you know, normally you don't know who's gonna win a championship.

Jake Winder (01:40:49):

There's like some sort of thought, like the thing is Yeah, you'd be like, has to, he has to mess up really bad.

Paul Burgess (01:40:57):

Yeah, yeah.

Jake Winder (01:40:59):

Like beyond, beyond bad,

Paul Burgess (01:41:01):

You know? And but Booker wasn't like that. Booker would lose sometimes.

Jake Winder (01:41:04):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:41:05):

Yeah. So Mondo seems to be one a year at the moment. That's his one a year. He sort of

Jake Winder (01:41:11):

Did he lose last one last year?

Paul Burgess (01:41:12):

Last year in Lassan he jumped 60. And then again, same sort of thing. Like he was jumping, he was jump still jumping way higher than everyone else was just like messed up in stands or it's like some people, like you can just be standing there and sometimes you can just trip over for no reason. That's what, that's what he's done, I reckon.

Jake Winder (01:41:32):

Right. It's basically,

Paul Burgess (01:41:34):

It's like he's just dropped, he's just dropped the pole. He's just let go, let go of, let go of the pole while he is at the wrong time or something. You know, he's just,

Jake Winder (01:41:43):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:41:44):

Yeah. Done something silly.

Jake Winder (01:41:45):

I just think that he vaults like, he's like a little kid, but he is on now in a five 20.

Paul Burgess (01:41:52):

Yeah.

Jake Winder (01:41:52):

You know, like it's just looks that easy

Paul Burgess (01:41:55):

And it's, I I sort of find it. And you know, some people try and talk about, Oh, it's amazing. He does that with, with the technique he's got. I don't understand that argument all actually, he's got the most technique going on. You know, I've talked to Greg about it quite a lot and I think we really get a lot like I, I think we have the same sort of thought the theories and stuff, but or we click, we kind of like, you know, agree with each other. But he said it really well. He said, I don't even think of it as technique. I think of, I think of it as like a chain of energy that you're trying to harness.

Jake Winder (01:42:35):

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Burgess (01:42:36):

And Mondo does it better. Mondo does exactly that. It's like he's just holding energy in the tube, you know, and he's keeping it as tight as possible and letting it come through him.

Jake Winder (01:42:47):

It's amazing. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:42:48):

And, and it doesn't matter. You don't need it's straight trail leg or, you know, high knee drop, all that stuff that neither here nor there, you know, when you're just thinking about what's the best way for each athlete to store energy in the poll and Right. Essentially have it go through them at the end. Yeah. You know, there's just so much leakage with everyone else

Jake Winder (01:43:15):

And it helps the bill to run over 10 meters per second too. <Laugh>.

Paul Burgess (01:43:19):

Well, that's true. But also, also you see, we've had fast guys before, but

Jake Winder (01:43:25):

Who has been, who has been as fast as him that has been an elite, elite Walter, I, I don't know. I'm

Paul Burgess (01:43:32):

Asking say not on the runway. Not on the runway because like, but rough Bull was

Jake Winder (01:43:38):

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:43:40):

But you know, he, it's about putting it together on the, But Mondo, he, he, he looks like he's tempo running on the, doesn't he going into the red zone?

Jake Winder (01:43:53):

<Laugh>? No, not even close. He's chilling. He is chilling.

Paul Burgess (01:43:57):

You know, he's just, he looks like he's got another gear going. But also you watch him, he looks loose and relaxed, but I reckon you watch him from front and stuff, there's just so little, There's no unnecessary movement. He just is so still.

Jake Winder (01:44:10):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:44:10):

Yeah. And you know, you see the, you know, we've all got different quirks and and stuff, but he's just so efficient. So efficient. Yeah. Yeah. He's, And then no one, he's got better feel and I, I don't know that it's, cause he was jumping since he was a kid. I think he might have genetic you know, coordination that's like, Look, he's good at everything. He's,

Jake Winder (01:44:37):

He's got good genetics. I mean, his mom and dad were weren't too bad of athletes.

Paul Burgess (01:44:41):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And, and his feel is just amazing at whatever he does. So I don't think, I think he started later he would've been,

Jake Winder (01:44:50):

Oh yeah. I I think that that whole jumping when you're five years old, I, I think that's bold. I mean, it's cool that he did wasn't, but I, I don't think it made a difference.

Paul Burgess (01:44:59):

It wasn't, he wasn't, it's not, you know, people talk about specializing. That's not what it was. He was just, his dad was at work. He was just going outside, picking up the poles that were there and playing for three hours by himself in bare feet.

Jake Winder (01:45:11):

Right. Right. Exactly.

Paul Burgess (01:45:13):

He wasn't, he wasn't doing drills. No. And then he'd go and this, then he'd go and not vault for a while. He'd go and play baseball for, he'd into baseball for a while or whatever. So it wasn't, I think, you know, the way Greg and Helen have done it has been awesome because they've, they've supported him, but they've, they've not pushed him. You know? Cause it's a really interesting vibe cuz I find usually like parents coaching their kids and I have kids now and I'm, I don't think I wanna do it based on most of the relationships I've seen, but the way Greg and Helen do it is is different somehow. There's, there's no pressure.

Jake Winder (01:45:56):

Yeah. Yeah. It's very laid back. Very laid back. Yeah. And they, they just, yeah. Yeah. It, that's what it seems like. It seems like another day's

Paul Burgess (01:46:06):

Making his own choices, Mondo's completely making his own choices.

Jake Winder (01:46:09):

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can see that. You can see that whenever if you, if you watch that, that whole thing go down. So you had mentioned about, so about Curtis, like you think he's got, you know, some more upsides. So what do you think are some things that maybe you wanna, you know, tap into that you think might help him to prosper a little bit?

Paul Burgess (01:46:33):

So I think we would like to try and give him a little bit more capacity with his speed I think. So if we can give him a bit more speed, overall speed and then even he's running re he's running okay. On the runway, but I think he's running too close there, which means I think then that's what he'll, he's, he'll break down at the few steps and falling out the

Jake Winder (01:47:01):

Oh, if

Paul Burgess (01:47:05):

Speed the balanced and be able to jump a take off sometimes, you know, sometimes he does, but other times it's like he's falling down the stairs.

Jake Winder (01:47:17):

Relaxed speed, just relaxed, controlled speed

Paul Burgess (01:47:21):

And, and balanced and, and in a position to jump.

Jake Winder (01:47:23):

Right. Right. You

Paul Burgess (01:47:25):

Know, so, so essentially that's that we have had really limited ability to put training him into him over the last few years. Cause you had a really serious back stress fracture that that's really taken a few years and, and we've been, you know, just balancing that and holding him together. We haven't been able to do a lot of work. Right. But that seems to have come good or a lot better now that we're hopefully able to put some real work into him. I also think you know what we've tried to work on, I don't know if you remember back in the day, he's really good at swinging upside down after take off, but have you seen some of his take off pictures where he is basically punching himself in the face with his left arm, left hand?

Jake Winder (01:48:11):

Curtis?

Paul Burgess (01:48:13):

Yeah. He'll be like, you know,

Jake Winder (01:48:15):

He just, Yeah, I don't, I don't really remember seeing that. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:48:19):

Yeah. So he just gets ripped. So I mean, we've worked on that, but sometimes when he is under stress or pressure, he'll resort back to that. Just getting, so I just think, you know, we need more consistency. So probably just general strength and speed if we can try and give him some of extra of that so that basically Yeah. If he, if he could operate at the same speed on the runway, but have more left, that would be handy. Right. And and I just think his jump is, is probably due to, due to those things, I think his jump isn't as, it's, it's not as locked in. So sometimes it's hard to make decisions in comps. So you might go, he might blow a pole away, so you put him up stick, but that he doesn't do the same thing and he just gets ripped and just gets stood up. So it's like, you know, and then you put him, if you put him down pole, he'll, you know, sort of, it's not the same jump every time. So that makes so like a world champs, I would say. Yeah. He, he, he missed his, he did some really good jumps to miss, like his last jump at 65 was a brilliant jump Yeah. On a big pole. But, and if he was consistent, we wouldn't be making those mistakes.

Jake Winder (01:49:50):

Right, right. Consistent, would you say with the takeoff mainly? Well,

Paul Burgess (01:49:54):

Yeah. So I think like, say his connection, like he might, he might, he just slightly misses the connection and he's sort of sinking into takeoff rather than jumping up into it. Right. That makes it just a huge difference on how the pole rolls through. So he might, you know, like what was he, what did he do at World Champs? He, oh, he went, he blew through on 11 nine, then we went 11 seven, he blew through. Right. And then he went 11 five, like, you know, so this stands on 80 11 5 and I think he made it, but he, he just went up and down and knew just it was not the same jump. Yeah. And then at, at 5 65 or whatever his first two jumps, he basically went, he went up and down completely.

Jake Winder (01:50:43):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:50:44):

But couldn't get, and then I almost wanted to down and he convinced me to stay. And on his last attempt, he just smashed it. Right. So it's like, I don't know what I, you know, that I would How do you make that decision based on the first two jumps? That's a hard point. It's again, but that's, that's on us to work out how to get, you know, we've gotta get him more stable.

Jake Winder (01:51:08):

Right, right.

Paul Burgess (01:51:10):

And I think, I think it's a lack of a, like he hasn't had a, he hasn't had the chance to do that much halting. Like we've been, you know, for the last few years. Sometimes it's been like every two weeks we can do one session.

Jake Winder (01:51:23):

Ah, man, that's a, his

Paul Burgess (01:51:24):

Back was that bad.

Jake Winder (01:51:26):

Geez. Yeah. That's rough. That's hard to get consistent, you know, like that and get your confidence, you know, up and everything. So what about, Nina obviously had an awesome year. Do you feel any pressure, are you nervous about next year <laugh> at all?

Paul Burgess (01:51:44):

Yeah, Already, already. I walked in, I was like, All right, well I guess it's only downhill from here.

Paul Burgess (01:51:52):

No, not too bad. Not too bad. I feel actually relieved that like, you know, now it's like I've, I, I really wanted Nina to just get this year, get a medal. I just wanted to get a medal. Now it's, we've got a medal. I think she can do better, but it's also like, I think the monkeys off the back a bit as well. Right. And she's actually, it's almost broken her free a little bit. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Again, I still think it's gonna be hard to get medals all the time. So like, I don't think in, like, what I would like to do is go and jump really well at Oil champs, like, let's say next year. And she goes and jumps 4 85 and comes fifth. You know, I'm not gonna people, it's like, Oh, she didn't do very well this year compared to last year or something like that. You know, it's like, actually, you know, that's all I can ask for. Yeah, I do think though, I do think that she like say needs to jump her like a 90 or something to make, Cause I think she, the eighties she's done have been, you know, she's called him.

Jake Winder (01:53:03):

Yeah. She's getting pretty consistent, you know, at that bar. So

Paul Burgess (01:53:07):

I'm like, so I'm like, you know, you need to, you probably should be jumping nineties. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you're probably jumping within yourself a bit.

Jake Winder (01:53:14):

Right, right.

Paul Burgess (01:53:14):

But it's mentally you've gotta jump 90 to make it feel normal. I think so, yeah. I'd like to sort of have a, you know, if we can break through and get a 90 in the books, then I feel like 80 would become that bar that she can do just to week in, week out. And that's what essentially what you wanna kind of go for is, is let's improve the average.

Jake Winder (01:53:36):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I totally, I, I totally agree and I'm, I'm really, you know, wishing, rooting for you guys and wishing you guys look. I do have a few, I know we've been going for a while here, but I, I have a couple questions that I missed out on. What did you involve six meters on?

Paul Burgess (01:53:57):

So I, so also you and Steve was, this is where another one where I wanted to call in when Steve was trying to tell you what I did. I was on a five mate, or 11.6. Wow. Gripping 4 91.

Jake Winder (01:54:09):

No way. That's a push right there, man. Holy cow. Yeah,

Paul Burgess (01:54:15):

But I didn't want to, you know, it was like, that was just, that was due to having a flat takeoff, <laugh>,

Jake Winder (01:54:20):

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah,

Paul Burgess (01:54:23):

I, I, I would've tripped, like I could drip higher, but my time, I, you know, affected the timing and essentially we worked, worked out that that grip, I was just, I got more out of the push than I did by outta the grip.

Jake Winder (01:54:38):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:54:39):

You know, so just, that's how it works out. And that's, I guess, like Sam Kendrick does way, way see does white Why C does that, you know, once a wait, that, Yeah,

Jake Winder (01:54:52):

There was a rumor floating around though, like whenever you did that, cuz I, that was whenever YouTube started to kind of come up a little bit. And I, there was a rumor floating around <laugh> at least, where, where I was living at. They were like, Yeah, he was on a 15 six or he was on a 4 75. Yeah. And I was like, I

Paul Burgess (01:55:11):

Feel flattered. I just feel flattered that there was a rumor about

Jake Winder (01:55:14):

Me <laugh>.

Paul Burgess (01:55:15):

That's the goal, isn't it?

Jake Winder (01:55:17):

Well, I was on a, I was on a 4 75, so I was like, how am I on a 4 75 and I'm jumping like 17 feet and he just jumped six meters doing that. So, Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:55:26):

Well, but Sam, Sam did some, Sam did some, some stuff that was, you know, probably more real closer to that sort of stuff, didn't he? Like he done some crazy big highs with low groups.

Jake Winder (01:55:38):

We had something on Rise Pole Vault's Instagram the yesterday or the day before where we asked, they asked like, what was the highest six meter vault or something like, or the biggest or smallest pole that somebody jumped six meters on. And I, and he said it was a, he, he responded to it and said it was the 15 9 15 foot nine pole. So what would that be?

Paul Burgess (01:56:04):

Hang on, tell does that four 80 pole, is it yeah's far out ripping Jesus?

Paul Burgess (01:56:14):

His technique to me doesn't, doesn't kind of look to me, it looks anti sometimes, you know, the way he chucks his head and sort of, Yeah. We somehow beats it. And again, you know, it's funny, you can get caught up in your own biases and you can start to wanna see the jump look a certain way over. Right. One metric that matters, which is how high they jump. Right. And you start sometimes that's why you need people to check on you, Yao, you sort of, do you really think you, you, you're so caught up in wanting to get their foot behind this mark or whatever. Right. But they're jumping high <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:56:54):

Yeah. I mean at the end of the day, Ed, he is very impressive and he puts it together, man. He puts it together well. Really impressive

Paul Burgess (01:57:04):

Dude. We think, Say what? His little brother, I don't know, his little brother's sort of starting to look, look

Jake Winder (01:57:10):

Better and better. Looks really good too. Yeah, really good.

Paul Burgess (01:57:12):

I don't know how old and stuff. This, I don't, can't work it out how old he is and how good he is and all that sort of thing. But I mean, in America it's different because people get better later.

Jake Winder (01:57:23):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (01:57:24):

Like, you know, there's, there's, you know, all the top guys you don't often see they've not come through world genius.

Jake Winder (01:57:33):

Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably true. A lot of them blossom. They start to blossom in college and and then even after college.

Paul Burgess (01:57:44):

It's such a good system though, because in, in Australia in particular, I think basically you have to have to be relevant. You've gotta get world Junior qualifier and go to World Juniors to sort of be put on the map. And then if you, if you do that, then it's world to seniors and there's nothing, there's no college on you sort of just in no man's land.

Jake Winder (01:58:12):

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. That is, and that's kind of like what we were talking about at the beginning is where you're trying to maybe bridge that gap a little bit that you know, we can, you can have some more, little bit more people to choose from. Yeah. That's a pretty narrow market.

Paul Burgess (01:58:28):

Some, some, some of the role of sort of a group is, of the group is, is to sort of bring up the, the sort of stars. But that's, you know, you gotta make sure you're doing that in a way that's like not using people <laugh>.

Jake Winder (01:58:44):

Oh yeah, yeah. 100%.

Paul Burgess (01:58:47):

So yeah, I sort of think that's Sorry, that's,

Jake Winder (01:58:50):

That's the way to do it. No, that's the way to do it. I how hard is it balancing out training these elite vaults and doing all these things and balancing out, like with your family and stuff?

Paul Burgess (01:59:04):

Yeah, so I find it, you know, again, training wise, you know, I feel like there's this badge of honor with coaches of how hard you work and all that sort of thing. And it's, and it's like the training, the fluff in, in sessions and stuff like that. Yeah. But it's like, let's, I think you can, you can actually be efficient if you want to, you know,

Jake Winder (01:59:29):

100% you,

Paul Burgess (01:59:30):

If you get yourself organized, you can actually do it well and you don't have to work from 6:00 AM to a nine at night, you know, sort of thing. Just so you can go and tell everyone how hard you work. Right. I think so when I'm here, I find I'm, I'm good. I'm, I don't try to I try to just manage my days well and make sure I'm doing things with the kids only I wanna just sort of make sure I'm doing a couple of the wanna be at their sport when I can. My son sort of, he loves his skateboarding and soccer and so trying, and I've started skateboarding cause of him get down the skate park with him or something, you know, Then, then I'm, I'm sort of, when I'm here, I'm okay. It's, it's the long trips away that have been tough. And it's, again, I feel like I've, I have to do it. I've, it's been, I've been justifying it by saying these have been strange years cause of, and everything. This year I was away from first, like, I came home on August 14th.

Jake Winder (02:00:46):

Oh,

Paul Burgess (02:00:46):

Wow. So nine days for nine days and then went back to Europe for another three weeks or whatever. I actually think this is something I wanna start pushing for as far as, I don't know what the situation in America is with all of that, but like in most sports over here, like the big sports cricket and, and you know, soccer and stuff like that, they're starting to become more family friendly. And I think that has to be, they has to be the way is you have to be ma trying to help and make it easier to, for say like a family to come over and see you in Europe for a bit or something. Like, not necessarily pay for it, but make things just try and encourage it. Yeah. Rather than sort of, you know, and, and make it, make it something that sort of like the, the employers actually push for things like that and they actually, you know, encourage it. Cause I do still feel that there's this like you almost, it's still not easy to ask for things like that sort of like made to feel like, come on, this is sport.

Jake Winder (02:02:04):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (02:02:05):

You know, It, it's like, I, I just don't want to I don't think it's, I don't wanna accept and go, Okay, I'm gonna be a coach, so I'll probably end up with a bad divorce and no relationship with my kids. Right. You know, it's like I'm not, that's, I don't accept that. Yeah.

Jake Winder (02:02:21):

<Laugh>. Right, Right.

Paul Burgess (02:02:23):

I mean, it might hap it might happen, but I don't wanna plan for it, you know? <Laugh> kidding.

Jake Winder (02:02:27):

<Laugh>. No, I mean, I, I mean, in the States, that's not as far as I know. I mean, it is, there's a, a couple people that get to go not manys and get paid trips and stuff like that, but I don't think that they fund

Paul Burgess (02:02:44):

Their, well, not so much. I don't even, you know, I mean, of course it costs a lot of money and stuff to bring family, but to me, I mean, I feel like there's been times where I've had say a service department that I'm only in, and I've sort of mentioned, Oh, can, if my family come over, can they sort of stay with me? And they'll say, Well, you'll have to pay for half the, you'll have to pay for half the cost of the thing then, or something like that. And I'm like, But I've already, you've already got it.

Jake Winder (02:03:09):

Right.

Paul Burgess (02:03:10):

And now you're trying to make money of it and that

Jake Winder (02:03:13):

That's,

Paul Burgess (02:03:14):

Wouldn't you, wouldn't you want me to? Wouldn't you want, wouldn't you encourage that sort

Jake Winder (02:03:19):

That would encourage you to be happier? Yeah. And more effective probably. Well,

Paul Burgess (02:03:24):

Well, I just think you should want the, you should want the industry to not have a reputation of just divorce and <laugh>.

Jake Winder (02:03:38):

Yeah. I mean, because that's, that's tough. That's, that's a decent chunk of time. I

Paul Burgess (02:03:43):

See a lot of, I see a lot of sad single men, like old older men coaches and stuff like that, that, that, you know, I think at that point, the other might have fun at the time, but they're pretty, they're probably, they're pretty you know, probably got, probably, probably wish they'd done diff things differently.

Jake Winder (02:04:03):

Yeah. Yeah. It, it shouldn't have to be, you know, this way or that way. You know? It should, it should, it should. There should be an in between.

Paul Burgess (02:04:13):

Well, one thing I'll say is the athletes I work with, like, so they, I've, they are so supportive of that sort of thing. They are, you know, wanting me to spend time with my family, wanting me to take time off and this things like that. But I think we're doing that, trying to do that both ways. I think as well, you know, it used to be a bit like, don't bring no, no girlfriends, don't bring girlfriends, whatever. But now I'm sort of like, to me the best thing, you know, both Nina and Curtis <laugh>, I feel like the best things that they've got are stable relationships.

Jake Winder (02:04:46):

There you go.

Paul Burgess (02:04:47):

You know, especially Nina, Nina, Nina having and she, you know, her and her boyfriend's just, you know, legend's a is a great guy. She's like, say, I don't stuff this one up. He's pretty cool <laugh>. But they, she's just so much more grounded.

Jake Winder (02:05:04):

Yeah.

Paul Burgess (02:05:05):

Yeah. You know, she's been with him for a couple of years now and it's like, she just, there's no noise in her life.

Jake Winder (02:05:12):

Right, right. That helps. Yeah. The consistency and, and just yeah. That's, I think very helpful. But it would be nice, you know, I don't know if they get to bring people with them to travel and stuff like that, but,

Paul Burgess (02:05:25):

Well, yeah. I, I support it. I support them too. But again, again, like, so Kurt's girlfriend has a job here Kurt Nina's boyfriend plays Australian, was football, things like that. So it's not easy, but, but it, I think even just the, sometimes it's even just feeling the support from people and knowing that you can, if you want to, that feels good.

Jake Winder (02:05:47):

Right.

Paul Burgess (02:05:48):

You know, like, like to have someone say like, Oh, can we do anything to, you know you know, make things a bit easier with your family or something. Even that just, no, that notion Right. Is is enough to kind of like, give you a bit of a boost.

Jake Winder (02:06:05):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. All right. So we did get somebody to phone in here named Steve, Steve.

Paul Burgess (02:06:15):

Is this live

Jake Winder (02:06:16):

<Laugh>? No, no, I'm just joking. He, he texted me, he texted me. I, I did he, I texted him, was like, I'm about to hop on with Paul. Any good questions? All right. So if any of these are inappropriate you know, Okay. Don't feel pressure. Ask him about his,

Paul Burgess (02:06:33):

You tell me what I'm allowed to

Jake Winder (02:06:36):

Ask him about his various, his various bands with Jimmy Miller.

Paul Burgess (02:06:41):

Oh, <laugh>. Well, <laugh>. So, yeah, I mean, I, I used to play a bit of music. We used to muck around and play some bands. Jim Miller, did you know Jim Miller? No.

Jake Winder (02:06:52):

Like Jim Miller band. Like

Paul Burgess (02:06:54):

No, Jim, no, not that's Steve Miller band. You are

Jake Winder (02:06:56):

Steve Miller band. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (02:06:58):

Yeah. James Miller. He was a Australian P that went in 96 Olympics and he was like a rock star. He looked like Kurt Kaba, whatever. But anyway, he, we, we used to play in bands and we had like country punk band. And then we had this, like, we just started mucking around playing like we listened. We watched this Bob Miley documentary, so we decided to make a, a hip hop man called Gun Brothers.

Jake Winder (02:07:21):

What did you play? What, what instrument did you play?

Paul Burgess (02:07:24):

I was bass and backing vocals and we'd, we'd just stuck muck around. So mandolin all sorts of things. But yeah, the Gun Brothers, you can look it up on YouTube. I think it's pretty, it's pretty pretty. It's pretty wacky. It's so, it's so like it's kind of purposely cheesy kind of thing, but it's pretty funny. Like bad, bad Jamaican accents and

Jake Winder (02:07:46):

Stuff. That's hilarious.

Paul Burgess (02:07:48):

But yeah. Yeah. So that was pretty fun. There we

Jake Winder (02:07:52):

Go.

Paul Burgess (02:07:52):

Yeah.

Jake Winder (02:07:54):

All right. Also ask about his worst airport experience with Poles.

Paul Burgess (02:08:00):

Oh, okay. So I was with like Tim, I was, Timm was there. Who else was there? I think it was like Geo Giovanni, the Na, you know. Yeah. I think to Toby. I don't know. There was a bunch of guys there. Was there. So two Olympic champions at Sydney Airport. I have decided to try five 20. So I've got Steve's spare set. I'm carry, I'm using Steve's spare set. Steve's got his own set. And we go to check in and they say we have to go take it down to the bottom, down to the bulky baggage down the bottom. I go first and go down the escalator. There's a big paint of glass and below that there's like a bulkhead, like a plaster, big bulkhead sort of thing. And I turned around and said, Hey guys, watch out for the paint of glass.

Paul Burgess (02:08:54):

And then as I said that, I just went my pole went through the pla pla through the bulkhead into the air conditioning thing. Then the back of my poles got stuck on the, of the stairs and the escalator going down, it just up like this and pushes it. And I'm just like, heaving trying to heave it out the way and it's just getting worse and worse. And then someone presses stop, like emergency stop thing, and the pole's vertical. And I'm standing there. My memory of it is that I've just like, I'm white like Marcel, and I just like, and I just cough like puff of like <laugh>. But anyway, I was just like, I just went and I just looked down on the ground and I, Steve and Tim, they were all just laughing their heads off. Right. And I wasn't laughing. I didn't have, you know, I walked downstairs and just sat down and just let them deal with it. I was just reckon I was just sitting there just like looking at the ground for like half an hour. Right. But I made everyone miss a plane. We all miss the plane. Oh. And I thought, Well, I'm gonna jail. <Laugh>, <laugh>, you know, I was like, I've just, I've just ruined the airport. And anyway, like they, apparently they felt, they somehow felt responsible. They put us on the next, cause apparently they weren't supposed to make us take him or something.

Jake Winder (02:10:23):

Oh. So anyway.

Paul Burgess (02:10:24):

Oh yeah. To then, Cause Steve was so freaking famous at the time. The news were there too. So like, so yeah, it all was all on the news and stuff and Oh, it's just, that's, that's the story of my life. It's always me. It's always me. <Laugh>.

Jake Winder (02:10:42):

Oh my gosh. That's crazy.

Paul Burgess (02:10:45):

Yeah. But, so,

Jake Winder (02:10:47):

Well, Paul, I got one last question for you and then we can, we can get off of here. But this is one that we do at the end. We didn't talk too, like, too much about like really specific exercises and stuff like that. But yeah, we ask a question where you choose three exercises that you would have your athletes do. And they can only do those three exercises and that's it. And they can pull vault as much as they want, but they can only do

Paul Burgess (02:11:17):

As an

Jake Winder (02:11:17):

Exercise doesn't count. You can do it as much as you want. Doesn't count. Yep.

Paul Burgess (02:11:23):

Okay.

Jake Winder (02:11:24):

And they have to do these exclusively for the rest of their career. And you gotta think that these three exercises would make them just as good as kind of what they are.

Paul Burgess (02:11:34):

Okay. I would say just one of the p one of the, one of the Olympic lifts. Then Uhhuh. Either, either like say clean and jerk or snatch something, something like, you know, cause I guess you get, it's a, it's an explosive movement and it's a full body sort of movement. Right. So, and just to choose one of them, whatever, whichever one. So people prefer I would say sprinting. Mm-Hmm.

Jake Winder (02:12:03):

<Affirmative>. How d how, how far, what, what would we, like if you

Paul Burgess (02:12:06):

Were I would go, I would think like thirties or forties.

Jake Winder (02:12:09):

Thirties or forties. Yeah. That's where I'm at too.

Paul Burgess (02:12:12):

Yeah. yeah, maybe like thirties for girls, forties for boys sort of thing.

Jake Winder (02:12:18):

There we

Paul Burgess (02:12:18):

Go. And let me think the last one. What does I would say it depends on what they say. Say if maybe one of the, a gymnastic sort of pole vault sort of simulation exercise on a high bar or something for someone who's not particularly gymnastic and needs to kind of actually do that. But say someone who is locked in on gymnastics, I would probably add Yeah. Bounding or hopping into like for say, you know, plys

Jake Winder (02:13:03):

Right, right. Some sort of bound and plyometric exercise. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (02:13:07):

Even like, say say like, say like bounding, like say five or six bounds for, for distance into the pit or something.

Jake Winder (02:13:15):

Yeah. You

Paul Burgess (02:13:15):

Know, something. Yeah.

Jake Winder (02:13:17):

Just some explosive like that. Well

Paul Burgess (02:13:20):

I mean, sorry. Go take back. Also probably just 400 meter reps. <Laugh> <laugh>.

Jake Winder (02:13:31):

Oh man.

Paul Burgess (02:13:32):

That's insane.

Jake Winder (02:13:34):

Yeah. And we love Sam Kendricks, but man, I just, yeah. I don't know. It's not my thing. Not my

Paul Burgess (02:13:39):

Thing. If that's what I've gotta do to jump high, then Right. Count me out. Count me out. <Laugh>,

Jake Winder (02:13:45):

What have you showed up to your workout first first day of practice and you were like, All right, Nina and Kurt, you guys are we're gonna do four, four hundreds <laugh>.

Paul Burgess (02:13:55):

So, so, so they, they, you know, they caught, they caught the tail end of some of that. Like, I've actually, that's been, it's only been about three years that we sort of, I've just, just gone, You know what? I think I'm done with him.

Jake Winder (02:14:06):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's, it's very similar to us. I think it, like you, we talked about earlier, I think it's just slowly changing. Just slowly starting to change. Yeah.

Paul Burgess (02:14:15):

You know? Well, again, when you're just wanting bang for buck for as well, you know?

Jake Winder (02:14:20):

Yep. Get in and get out. Get rid of the fricking fluff. Get rid of the fluff. The fluffs outta here, man. Not

Paul Burgess (02:14:25):

Fluff.

Jake Winder (02:14:26):

Needle movers, Needle moving exercises. Only

Paul Burgess (02:14:30):

<Laugh>.

Jake Winder (02:14:31):

All right, Paul. Well I can't thank you enough for your time. That was a really, I really enjoyed it.

Paul Burgess (02:14:36):

Yeah. I, I, I, I tend to talk too much and talk over people sometimes, so sorry if I did that too much, but I really enjoyed talking to you too, Jack, so,

Jake Winder (02:14:44):

Yeah. Yeah. Well I appreciate it. And yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll run it back sometime in the future and yeah, thanks again. And this is the one more jump podcast. See you guys.